Grammatical (and lexical) features of Taiwan Mandarin

[chrix]

I was told about a very nice website pointing out some of the more important grammatical differences of Taiwan Mandarin (henceforth abbreviated TW) compared to the standard Putonghua (henceforth abbreviated BJ).

Since the link is in Chinese, let me list some of the features in English:

LEXICAL

- omission of 兒 suffix in TW where BJ has one

- 子 suffix in TW, where BJ doesn't use it

- 子 suffix in TW instead of 兒 in BJ

- calques from Taiwanese into Mandarin

- different foreign borrowings in TW, often based on Japanese

GRAMMAR

most of the following are not considered standard in Taiwan, they are, however, encountered in Taiwan Mandarin heavily influenced by Taiwanese

1. 有 as a completive aspect auxiliary. This is pretty common and could be regarded as part of the standard in Taiwan

2. 說 as a a complementiser and a final particle

3. 給 as a causative verb (instead of 讓/使) (this is an interference from Taiwanese)

4. 在 as an auxiliary can be used with stative verbs and also can express purposive meaning (this is an interference from Taiwanese also, and I don't fully understand this yet. Examples for this include:

- 舒跑是運動的時候在喝的，平常不要喝

- 媽，弟弟好像在發燒

- 這份定食就是蝦子在貴！　

- 我們的孩子是婆婆在帶，房租是我先生在付

5. 用 can be used as an instrumental preposition with nominalised verbs, thus acquiring a meaning similar to the English "by V-ing" construction.

6. 會 as an auxiliary with stative verbs (aka "adjectives") (interference from Taiwanese)

7. 不行 as a modal verb, akin to 不可以 or 不能 (interference from Taiwanese)

8. 不錯+V instead of 好V V起來不錯 (interference from Taiwanese)

9. V看看 instead of V看 (interference from Taiwanese)

10. 來去 as an auxiliary verb with inchoative meaning (interference from Taiwanese)

Edited December 13, 2009 at 10:09 PM by chrix

[jiangping]

Great find!!! I was in Taiwan during the Summer and was rather confused about how people were using 會. Here are some interesting usages I came across:

1. (ordering in a restaurant)

顧客: 這會辣嗎？Is this (dish) spicy?

服務員: 會 Yes

2. (near the top on a ferris wheel)

朋友A: 你會懼高嗎？Are you scared of heights?

朋友B: 不會 No

3. (in a discussion about tones in Hokkien and Cantonese)

老師: 廣東話的聲調會更復雜一點. Cantonese tones are even more complicated (than Hokkien tones).

學生: 會嗎？Really?

1 and 2 seem fairly straightforward, with the 會 is acting as an auxiliary verb before a verb phrase to help form the question. In both cases the answer is either 會 or 不會.

Number 3, however, doesn't seem to be accounted for by this article, 'coz it's neither a question, answer nor in the negative (不會). Number 3 was said by a Taiwanese speaker, although this usage might not actually be anything to do with Taiwanese influence. I am still not 100% clear myself. There was an earlier thread about what appears to be the usage in number 3: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/22745-%e4%b8%ba%e4%bb%80%e4%b9%88%e4%bc%9a%e6%9c%89%e6%98%9f%e6%98%9f-help-me-understand-%e4%bc%9a%e6%9c%89-in-this-sentence. Any ideas?

[chrix]

AFAIK there is actually quite a lot of scholarship on this question. And even though I haven't read it in any detail, I'd say, it really seems to be a Taiwanese influence...

[chrix]

OK, I think most of the stuff in the link above is based on Robert Cheng's article in the most important linguistic journal, Language, from 1985: "A comparison of Taiwanese, Taiwan Mandarin, and Peking Mandarin". Be sure to check it out!

Also I have the third volume of collected articles by Robert Cheng, it's called 台﹑華與的接觸與同義語的互動. It also has the Language article and a Mandarin translation of it, also several other articles on differences between Taiwan Mandarin and "Peking Mandarin". If you're interested and affiliated with a university, I'd try getting it through ILL.

[Mugi]

1. (ordering in a restaurant)

顧客: 這會辣嗎？Is this (dish) spicy?

服務員: 會 Yes

2. (near the top on a ferris wheel)

朋友A: 你會懼高嗎？Are you scared of heights?

朋友B: 不會 No

3. (in a discussion about tones in Hokkien and Cantonese)

老師: 廣東話的聲調會更復雜一點. Cantonese tones are even more complicated (than Hokkien tones).

學生: 會嗎？Really?

These are actually all examples of influence from Taiwanese.

In Taiwanese 會 is used to indicate that what comes next is, from the speaker's perspective (and usually the listener's as well), undesirable or a negative attribute.

So in 1, the speaker is indicating that they don't like the dish too spicy. You can also ask 這辣嗎？, in which case it is simply a neutral inquiry. (cf You will never hear 這會好吃嗎? and seldom hear 這會甜嗎?, as "sweet" is generally considered to be a desirable attribute.)

In 2, "being afraid" is thought of as always being an undesirable thing, so (in Taiwanese) the question has to take 會. Other common examples are "hungry" and "tired", but you would never hear it for "full" or "refreshed/rested".

In 3, being "complicated" is not desirable, hence the use of 會; but you can't say 廣東話的聲調會更簡單一點, at least not in Taiwanese itself. To what degree this rule applies to TW Mandarin, I'm not certain.

[chinesetools]

For information on lexical differences between the two Mandarins, a useful reference is the 両岸現代漢語常用詞典 which includes 8,000 characters and 45,000 phrases, listing if the entry is more commonly used in one or the other and the TW/BJ equivalent. It's been handy for cross-strait comparisons. It's available at Cheng and Tsui at http://www.cheng-tsui.com/store/products/liangan_xiandai_hanyu_changyong_cidian

[in_lab]

That was a good link. It would be helpful if the article would distinguish the level of acceptance of each of the usages--which are standard (accepted) grammar, which are common but not considered good grammar, and which are neither common nor good grammar. For example, I don't think Chinese teachers in Taiwan would have any problems with the use of 會 and 用 as described in the link, but they would have a problem with 不錯+verb. And for people like me, who are used to hearing these usages, it would be good to know how they would be expressed in standard putonghua.

10. 「來去」變成雙助動詞 this didn't sound familiar to me. I may not have paid attention, but I have to guess that it isn't very common.

2. 「說」變成補語標記詞(complementiser)/句末語氣詞 I'm not sure whether this is considered bad grammar, or informal, or normal.

You will never hear 這會好吃嗎?

這會好吃嗎? would be used to sound doubtful. For example if I told you shrimp goes well with ice cream.

[chrix]

That was a good link. It would be helpful if the article would distinguish the level of acceptance of each of the usages--which are standard (accepted) grammar, which are common but not considered good grammar, and which are neither common nor good grammar.

That indeed is a good question. Seeing that the link is from a website about teaching Chinese to foreigners, I think it's about reminding (soon-to-be) language lecturers from Taiwan not to teach their students Taiwan Mandarin grammar. Robert Cheng, OTOH, on whose work the link partially seems to be based, would probably advocate creating a Taiwan Mandarin standard based on how people actually speak.

It would be interesting to examine how standard is defined in Taiwan, is there some government standard (that we could look at), and how likely are people to follow it. I mean the three DE are considered standard as well (and according to Taiwanese friends, was taught in school), yet most don't follow it. And if there is a clearly defnined standard, if the Chen adminstration introduced changes and if the Ma administration did.

[gato]

10. 「來去」變成雙助動詞 this didn't sound familiar to me. I may not have paid attention, but I have to guess that it isn't very common.

See the example used.:

http://twtcsl.org/further/Tw+Mandarin_lexicon+and+syntax

10. 「來去」變成雙助動詞

★說明：台語的「來去(lai-khi)」僅表「去」義，例如：咱lai-khi外口…(我們到外面去…)。此外，lai-khi有「將要」的意涵，例如：「我lai-khi呷飯」，而台灣國語受此句法影響，演變成以「來去＋VP」表示將要或動作正開始的意思。

★例如：十二點半了，來去吃飯嘍。

（以上例句參見《今日台灣》）

"十二點半了，來去吃飯嘍" is equivalent to "十二点半了，我们來去吃饭喽". The construction might be "来” ＋ verb actually. For example, 我们来做功课，我们来玩游戏. No?

[in_lab]

The construction might be "来” ＋ verb actually.

I think 來+verb would be standard, 去 + verb would also be standard, but 來去+ verb sounds funny. So, I think the article is only referring to 來去+ verb.

The sentence 十二点半了，我们來去吃饭喽 makes perfect sense to me, but it must violate some rule about 來 and 去 being used together.

[Mugi]

這會好吃嗎? would be used to sound doubtful. For example if I told you shrimp goes well with ice cream.

Yes, on reflection you are completely right. I guess I was stuck in the context of someone asking a simple question about whether a given dish tastes good or not, when the reasonable expectation is that it does taste good - for instance when inquiring about the ice-cream alone. In the context you give, the usage of 會 is standard Mandarin usage, and differs from its function in 這會辣嗎?

[in_lab]

這會好吃嗎?

這會辣嗎?

So, what is the difference in those two phrases? All I can see is that 會 makes the sentences more hypothetical, and 好吃 and 辣 are both adjectives.

[Mugi]

As jiangping alluded, the 會 in 這會辣嗎? is probably Taiwan Mandarin usage, not standard Mandarin usage. Without the exact context we can't say for certain, but the intention of the speaker was probably not to make the sentence more hypothetical, but rather indicate that the spiciness is undesirable - it means "Is this dish spicy? ('Cos I don't like spicy food.)"

In standard Mandarin you can't ask 這會辣嗎? when unconditionally enquiring whether a given dish is spicy or not. You can only use 這辣嗎? In Taiwan Mandarin, both are valid but they have different nuances.

The use of 會 here (in all the jiangping's examples) perfectly mirrors that of 閩南話.

Speakers unfamiliar with 閩南話 are forced to reconcile 會 with their known meanings/usages of the word, hence may assume that it is adding a hypothetical quality to the statement, or as it would seem the case with jiangping, become a little confused (or at least note that the usage differs from that of standard Mandarin).

[in_lab]

Thanks for the explanation.

[Mugi]

不會！

I have since discovered that this usage of 會 in Taiwanese is surprisingly ill documented, despite in my experience being well recognized by Taiwanese teachers.

I have managed to find this small snippet, from 台灣閩南語概要 by 盧黃誠 (南天書局, 2003) under 正反文句 on page 95:

值得一提的是，如果述語是形容詞，以 '有...無' 問，表示形容詞指稱的性狀是問話人希望存在的; 以 '會...袂' 問，表示形容詞指稱的性狀是問話人不希望存在的。例如:

(10) 柑仔有甜無？

(11) 李仔會酸袂？

(12) 湯有鹹無？

(13) 湯會鹹袂？

(14) 即領衫有紅無？

(15) 即領衫會紅袂？

Of course, this is talking specifically about Taiwanese usage, but ultimately it is the source of one of the non-standard usages of 會 in Taiwan Mandarin.