Race in China

[gato]

A lively discussion on the New York Times site on race in China, sparked by the Lou Jing story.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/13/chinas-changing-views-on-race

December 13, 2009, 8:00 pm

China’s Changing Views on Race

The readers' comments are quite heated.

http://community.nytimes.com/comments/roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/13/chinas-changing-views-on-race/?sort=oldest&offset=1

Reader comments

I'm surprised by the vehemence of some of the comments by "foreign teachers" in China. I think that they've lost their sense of perspective. What do you think?

[Don_Horhe]

I wouldn't call what China has racism per se, despite having been told that black people are colloquially called 隐形侠 because, as my friend put it, "you can't see them in the dark" and knowing quite a few non-Chinese of Asian ethnicity who couldn't get jobs teaching their native language (English, Russian etc.) just because they don't look "foreign". I'd call it simple ignorance.

[roddy]

I think you're better off not reading blog comments, unless filtered.

[animal world]

the vehemence of some of the comments by "foreign teachers" in China. I think that they've lost their sense of perspective. What do you think?

Read a few comments here and there and noticed this intolerance of perceived bigotry as well. Guess who came across as portraying a sense of superiority? It made me wonder whether those posters are in China because ... they couldn't get a job in their own country.

[Hero Doug]

On the topic of foreigners in China with a "superiority" attitude; I think I know where their coming from.

When I first got here I noticed a lot of negative aspects of the culture. Crazy driving causing inefficiencies, people having to resort to selling food on the street to make ends meat, and even Africans being brought over to work at local bars to "hang out" with gentlemen at some of the local clubs. Some of it is sad stuff indeed.

The thing that I'm ashamed I forgot, was that my own culture is not much better in many ways, and I had no right to come down as I did on Chinese culture for their failings.

We don't have a plethora of people selling fruit and food on the street to make ends meat like they do in China, but we do have many people selling hot dogs and fake Gucci watches which is a close parallel.

We may not have foreign girls working in the local dance club ready and able to "go the extra mile", but we do have champaign rooms and illegal immigrants who are forced into the sex industry.

My point is, I think a lot of people are used to the ills of their own culture and the shock value of it has already been absorbed; while their are shocked by the all of the new ills of this foreign culture and develop a "superiority complex" so to speak. It takes time for people to realize (accept) that we are different, but it's not as clear cut as night and day.

[wushijiao]

Whenever talking about racism in China, I think it's always best to define what the word "racism" means...do we simply mean "bad things" between different peoples. are we talking about certain prejudices, American notions of race, institutional racism...or what?

I think it's more productive to notice and observe how prejudice takes place in China, amongst regular people and in institutions, and then give that particular names that don't draw on incredibly complex, culturally specific, and loaded words like "racism".

[Outofin]

Only read the summaries of each articles on the first page. I agree with

If Western racism is about genetic dispositions, Chinese prejudices and racism are more about achievements and standing in the world as applied to individuals or groups.

Comparing them, I think "Chinese prejudices and racism" is more outright and annoying, while developed countries tend to be more thoughtful but racism is still very real and is more harmful.

[gerri]

is more outright and annoying

I think here we are getting to what makes it so difficult for many people, at least with the "outright" part: Chinese would not see themselves as racist, they simply say it as they think it is. Oftentimes, that's comments which, to the Western ear, reek of racism.

However, they are, then, practicing "equal-opportunity discrimination:"

You are likely to hear the same kinds of comments about Han who are perceived as backwards, e.g. coming from rural areas, as about minorities.

There is also a much stronger positive discrimination, if you are White Western, and/or pretty, well-off... coupled with stares and pointing. Especially to foreigners (or people perceived as such - and I admit, I still wonder what it means that Chinese would, for the sake of national unity, protest vehemently if you suggested that Uighurs weren't really Chinese, but at the same time, would themselves classify them as not-quite-Chinese because of their different looks), very open comments (and stares, and more) are the norm...

In many cases, I find it to be simply less politically-correct, and therefore jarring to a Westerner, but maybe even more honest. I have more problems, given the lack not only of contact but even opportunity for engagement with the wider world, with Westerners who would vocally proclaim their obvious non-racist nature, then go on to denounce blacks, muslims, etc. as unwanted because they are "just different."

Those foreign teachers in particular... I met a few too many who first say they want to stay in China long because they love the country, then talk about the cheap price of prostitutes, discuss just how stupid their students are (in English, in earshot of students who pretty well understand) and have hardly any interest in Chinese (both language and people, it seems)...

Back to my studies, though, before I just ramble and continue living here without being able to speak!

[mcgau]

In this thread, it comes to my surprise that no one mentions racism towards Non-Han Chinese, like Uighur(West), Yi Ethic group (in the South of Sichuan) and Tibetan.

talking racism in China in the view of a non-Chinese foreigners seems to be weird. You seldom expect any violence and verbal attack on a 'foreigin' because of religion or skin color. In my observation Chinese tend to be generally nice, polite and tolerate towards many foreigners no matter you come from United States or United Arab Emirates.

It's quite expected. I mean Chinese has a big sense of collectivism and a lot of people believe that it's their social responsibility to "keep 'international friendship and international image' of China." When we had a problem of queuing up or buying things, we liked to dispatch our "foreign friend" to ask for that because they often had a privilege. It's just all about how you see that. Staring is common because people are curious, not threatening. Assume yourself a celebrity and ego is easily well fed in China.

[Don_Horhe]

Just because something isn't said in your face doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's what gets mentioned in private conversations which helps one get a clear picture of what opinions and attitudes really are.

[mcgau]

The difference in china seems to be the fact that racism didn't cause a really painful damage on them yet. They didn't go that far as their counterparts in the west to run genocide, holocaust or a apartheid but racism and stereotype do exist and people live with it, especially in the time of peace. It erupts under tension, just like what happened in Xinjiang.

In Chinese, the word "racism" is not much different than "racialism". If you're being called 'racist' in America, that's a big accusation and you feel urged to deny it, but I even met a Chinese who called himself a "racist". He put it this way:

"I hate Japs (xiao riben), but you know, this race is good and creative, well disciplined and better than Chinese. There's just differences in different races. some races are worse, some better."

What's racism meant to Chinese? How do they understand this word? When they believe that some ethic groups tend to be violent, lazy, silly, what will they do? Is it natural born and inherent?

I think throwing such modern term "racism" on China doesn't help us understand anything because we may talk about very different things. Hong Kong lawmakers passed an ordinance on racial discrimination some time ago, but people also felt weird that the most common victim of discrimination is Mainland Chinese---the term "racial" makes it weird because more than 95% of Hongkongese are Chinese.

[Don_Horhe]

You brought up an important aspect of the question, Mcgau. Acknowledging that race and differences between races do exist is not "racism". Racism is when discrimination, hatred, violence is directed at a certain group because of said differences.

[renzhe]

I disagree.

Racism is simply the belief that some races (especially your own) are better than other races. In other words, that people are intrinsically inferior or superior based on their race.

The discrimination is simply a natural consequence of this.

[Outofin]

I'm still forming my stand on this issue and may change it. So please bear with me.

Differences between races do exist. There are many things I don't see solution.

For example, many new Asian immigrants don't speak English well. In some cities, the rate is very high. When an American talks to an Asian for the first time, he assumes the person doesn't speak English well. Is there anything wrong with that? The odd he's right could be 90%. But to the 10% of Asian who speak English or even were born in the US, this isn't a happy conversation.

We should call it racism. But we have to tolerate it, rather than accusing it. I mean, come on, what do you expect? Life is not perfect.

I think we should know our limits. Acknowledge that our intelligence is about the same level of the people you live with, and we can make mistakes as much likely as others. (All doesn't exist in partisan cultures.) Be humble, so we don't annoy people. If there're differences, think of them not as inherent differences but of environment. For example, "The Chinese/Americans/Muslims have these good characteristics, but have those bad characteristics." That's in fact something that could change as time changes, and something that's determined by the reality they live.

English speaking Asians is a mild example. There're many harsh ones. What about terrorists, criminals, undereducated? I don't see solution. The problem is, at first, we try to deny the differences. After that, we deny that we failed to deny the differences.

[Kenny同志]

Racism( we call it 种族主义) was what was happening from hundreds of years ago up to decades ago in the West. It was not simply as Renzhe put it,

the belief that some races (especially your own) are better than other races.

I agree with Don Horhe when he said

Racism is when discrimination, hatred, violence is directed at a certain group because of said differences.

,coupled with a sense of superiority of your own ethnic group.

If racism in the real sense is the said belief on the Free Dictionary, then there are few country in the world free of it. We use the "VERY BIG" word talking about things in China, we complicate the issue.

I never believe there is any racism in China. It can be called, at best, 地域歧视, or 民族偏见. I don't have any problem with any nation or people. Most Chinese don't.

Edited December 19, 2009 at 02:00 AM by kenny2006woo

[renzhe]

What I gave was simply the dictionary definition.

Obviously, there are many different degrees, from the (relatively) harmless "oh, you're black, you must be a fast runner" to full-on genocide. But every time you're treated differently because of your skin colour or ethnicity, it's racism. You should be treated based on what you're like as a person.

And it's true, it does seem like people are generally more sensitive about it in the West than in the far East. Which can lead to very uncomfortable conversations.

[mcgau]

I never believe there is any racism in China. It can be at best, called 地域歧视, or 民族偏见. I don't have any problem with any nation or people. most Chinese don't.

At the height of nationalism, I don't really find it convincing with the notion that Chinese doesn't have a sense of superiority over other nations. However, I think racism in China is so different, influenced by their background and traditional values.

In a more precise term, it's chauvinism, not racism , that prevails in China.

Ancient Chinese had a simple theory to distinguish them from other races. They're Hua (華, civilized) and all the rest are Yi (夷, barbarian), but people can be transformed to be Hua. The royal court didn't call Korean as Yi because they were deeply "bathed" in the Chinese civilization, in other word, they became 'superior" through the process of assimilation in a superior culture.

As a matter of fact, China has long been a melting pot of different races. The family of Tang Tai Zong, a renowned emperor in Tang Dynasty, is arguably a descendant of Xian Bei tribe. Zheng He, an explorer in Ming Dynasty, is a great grandson of a man called Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar, claimed to be a descendant of Muhammad. The Manchurian court of Qing Dynasty had also spent huge efforts on this topic for reasons everyone should know about.

In modern China, racism has been hardly heard in all political turbulence. They had their own way to eliminate their "unwanted people" by calling them "enemy to people or class", "spies of Jiang's (KMT) gang", "Anti-Revolutionist". And the "harmony of races" is actually an achievement claimed by the Red Party. They don't need to copy the strategy of, let say, Nazism or Imperial Japanese.

To make the case more complicated, Chinese is a fairly new term, officially a bunch of 56(?) ethic groups in China and it's difficult to distinguish the traits in most of these groups.

As kenny2006woo put it, a bias toward other tribes exist, just like a bias towards occupation (being called "peasant" is an insult) and birth place (ask people from Henan). . Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that talking racism in China is a lazy copycat of western fashion, mixing up the issue with independent movements.

[mcgau]

What I gave was simply the dictionary definition.

Obviously, there are many different degrees, from the (relatively) harmless "oh, you're black, you must be a fast runner" to full-on genocide. But every time you're treated differently because of your skin colour or ethnicity, it's racism. You should be treated based on what you're like as a person.

And it's true, it does seem like people are generally more sensitive about it in the West than in the far East. Which can lead to very uncomfortable conversations.

I can understand it. You know it's quite annoyed to see people to pretend Bruce Lee (Aiyaayayayyayaya! Kung fu! ) all the time when they know where I come from. Sometimes they just guess it by my color, "Konichiwa", "nihao!"

It's just life. China is not really a multi-nation country ready to make everyone living there completely like local people.

But is it racism? Come on, that's going too far and the inconsiderate conclusion like this will only make you more difficult to live with other people.

[gato]

All in all, I think racism is a minor problem in China in light of all the other problems that need attention.

[chrix]

Racism comes in many shades, and China is no stranger to this problem (but neither are other places!), maybe kenny lives in a very enlightened environment, that would be great for him.

But at the end of the day, I would agree with gato here....