Race in China

[renzhe]

mcgau, you might be reading too much into my comments. I wasn't bashing on China, although I do feel that there is some racism in China.

But racism is a very big problem in Europe and the US too. As is chauvinism. If anything, Europeans and Americans should know better by now, which makes it even more embarrassing when stuff you described happens.

I don't share the arrogant expat attitude that China is the source of all evil. I just think that racial discrimination and prejudice shouldn't be played down. It's wrong, everywhere, and all the time, IMO.

[Scoobyqueen]

Racism is simply the belief that some races (especially your own) are better than other races. In other words, that people are intrinsically inferior or superior based on their race.

The discrimination is simply a natural consequence of this.

Isnt this just a pseudo-intellectual post-rationalisation. People being racist is borne out of a base fear of things that are different

[renzhe]

No, it's the dictionary definition.

I don't know what causes it, I just know that it stinks.

[mcgau]

mcgau, you might be reading too much into my comments. I wasn't bashing on China, although I do feel that there is some racism in China.

But racism is a very big problem in Europe and the US too. As is chauvinism. If anything, Europeans and Americans should know better by now, which makes it even more embarrassing when stuff you described happens.

I don't share the arrogant expat attitude that China is the source of all evil. I just think that racial discrimination and prejudice shouldn't be played down. It's wrong, everywhere, and all the time, IMO.

Think of it in positive light:

智慧出，有大伪；六亲不和，有孝慈；国家昏乱，有忠臣. (from Taoist)

[Kenny同志]

I don't really find it convincing with the notion that Chinese doesn't have a sense of superiority over other nations.

True, but I would not call it racism. The ancient Chinese imperial court liked to place itself in the position of 天朝上国 and called the other ethnic groups 蛮夷, however, that was merely a sense of superiority, a far cry from what racism is (as I said in my above post, if racism is what the dictionary claims to be, then few countries in the world are free of it). "ethnic prejudice" may be a better word.

I know some may consider it racism when Chinese call the Japanese "xiaoriben" or "ribenlao". I disagree. Just note what the Japanese had done or have done to us and you will be clear. It is not because of their ethnicity.

Edited December 19, 2009 at 07:15 AM by kenny2006woo

[gerri]

It is because of their nationality and because of historical guilt.

Now, while I would like the Japanese state to be more forthcoming with apologies for WWII atrocities, to keep on calling people (the more recent generations) "devils" or the like just because of their nationality is blaming people for a past they have no responsibility for, having been born some, if not a long, time after.

That's like the "all Germans are responsible for WWII atrocities, so have to make up for it / are evil / whatever...." Sorry, but I don't think collective guilt / blame is a good way forward.

[Kenny同志]

Now, while I would like the Japanese state to be more forthcoming with apologies for WWII atrocities, to keep on calling people (the more recent generations) "devils" or the like just because of their nationality is blaming people for a past they have no responsibility for,

Yes, the younger Japanese generations do not have any responsibility for the horrible cirmes committed by their forefathers. But why do they distort the history on purpose and worship the war criminals, even against the protests of the war victims? The distortion announces the nation a coward;and the worship ritual only gives the image that the nation sees those ugly years as an honorable page in its history. These things would understandably anger any Chinese in right mind. Like it or not, the feeling (hostility or dislike some'd like to call) is mutual between the two nations.

What I've said above is in a general manner. It must be admitted there are also nice, reasonable people in Japan.

[chrix]

Actually, kenny, you are mistaken about what most young Japanese do. Neither do they distort history nor worship war criminals, for them the past just doesn't play any role any more, most of them don't know much about it. That's one of the biggest misunderstandings between Chinese and Koreans on one side and Japanese on the other. I don't say this is ideal but it's just the way it is....

[Kenny同志]

let's drop the topic. we've derailed the thread.

[chrix]

I actually think it is quite relevant to this thread...

[Kenny同志]

It is not racism. it is 仇怨。

PS: I don't hate Japanese, but I don't like them.

[chrix]

At least it could be racial discrimination, which the UN defines as follows (the UN does not define 'racism'):

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

Grudge or no grudge, if it is based on origin, and not on individual guilt, I'd say this could very well apply, but I'm no lawyer...

[Kenny同志]

Grudge or no grudge, if it is based on origin, regardless of individual guilt, I'd say this could very well apply, but I'm no lawyer...

Chrix, well, the dislike (or racial discriminationyou call) is not based on origin, but rather, on what Japan has done.

[chrix]

Yes, I understand that, I know the history well. But the convention defines it clearly, based on "national origin" of the person concerned counts as well. I know this is a sensitive issue, and I can understand what's behind it, but if it leads to Japanese people suffering negative actions such as being publicly yelled at, thrown out of bars, denied business etc., this is a form of racial discrimination, regardless of whether it's justified or not.

[Kenny同志]

OK, I surrender. lol

[chrix]

I don't think it's about surrendering here, but all right, let's just let it rest and get back to language issues

[gerri]

A (related) language issue, actually:

I found students mis-using the word nationality to refer to what I'd consider ethnicity - they were talking about the national minorities. We found that much of the "problem" here may simply be based on the range of meanings/connotations. There is considerable overlap between 民族 and nationality (and in some contexts / word combinations, it seems that this would be the meaning), but there is others - such as when it refers to the minorities (or, for that matter, to 汉 ethnicity) - where the connotations are such that this does not fit.

I wonder how often something like that happens, where a "Westerner" would call it racism (or discrimination of other kinds) and Chinese would not see it that way. In many such things, it seems to me that China may simply be more open to calling some things as they are.

(Case in point, though not about race: an American or European company may prefer a good looking secretary but would never "stoop so low" as to point out desired physical attributes - or run the risk of legal trouble it would in fact get into; in China, people seem pretty up front about the role that good looks play.)

Something else: I'm actually working on a book (article? ... will have to see) on what factors into Chinese identity - and the main, but it seems easily overlooked, issue is always the context: in different contexts, different aspects of identity come to the fore.

[chrix]

Aren't you lumping things together a bit here? I think the 'good looks' thing legally is a problem in the West mainly because of sexism issues.

But please let us know where in the above example the "Chinese may simply be more open to calling some things as they are". This is not meant in a sarcastic way, I'm open to being educated about this.

Oh, and FULL ACK on the contextuality of Chinese identity issue.

[mcgau]

kenny2006woo possibly illustrates an example there. I don't really see how this kind of stereotype operates differently than the bias towards Henanese in China.

Henan, a fallen back province in China, is one of the common victims of biases in China. As with other places in China, Han is an overwhemling majority, but Henanese are assumed to be thief, robber, rioter. There is always a case study available claimed to justify the bias. But no matter how to justify it, it's discrimination, based on where you come from, not about a race.

Japan and China shares pretty similar background, akin to Italian vs Francer and English vs American. It seems odd to suggest that Englishmen's contempt over American of European origin in the colonial days was "racism".

Don't get me wrong. I'm no defender for these biases, but I think it doesn't help explain anything with the word "racism".

[xianhua]

Something else: I'm actually working on a book (article? ... will have to see) on what factors into Chinese identity

If you haven't read it already, My Country and My People may help with your research.

Oh, and FULL ACK on the contextuality of Chinese identity issue.

Now I know this a contentious issue, but there's really no need for that kind of language.