How To Use Hanyu Pinyin

[MayLee]

Hi! I am MayLee here. I have a question here which I have wanted to ask for a long long time already. Could someone please help me by telling me when to add an "h" or when not to add an "h" when searching for the hanyu pinyin of a certain Chinese character? For example, when searching for "知" which is "zhi" in hanyu pinyin and when searching for "字" which is "zi" in hanyu pinyin. Thank-you very much!

[chrix]

When they're pronounced differently?

You didn't give us too many details. Are you a native speaker of Mandarin, maybe from Taiwan, where many speakers have merged "zh ㄓ, ch ㄔ, sh ㄕ" and "z ㄗ, c ㄘ, s ㄙ"? In that case, your only recourse would be to memorise which words are pronounced with what kind of initial...

[Erbse]

The question makes sense, if the thread starter speaks a southern dialect of Mandarin.

zh -> z

[chrix]

you mean a southern Chinese language other than Mandarin?

[Erbse]

When I was in Kunming and Chengdu people said things like:

ni si na guo ren?

ni zidao ma?

ze si si kuai.

The mother of a good friend always calls her if she can't find something in the dictionary. Also has that sh->s and zh->z problem. They are from Shanghai.

[chrix]

Ah I see what you mean. Usually Yunnanhua and Sichuanhua are called Southwestern Mandarin Dialects,so I did a double-take,because in the region that is usually called South China Mandarin is not native.

[MayLee]

Hello, Chris and Erbse! Thank-you so much for answering my question but so sorry to say that I am now even more confused with both your answers. For your information, I am neither a Taiwanese nor a speaker of the southern dialect of Mandarin. I am in fact a Malaysian and at the moment am a self learner of the Chinese language itself. Therefore, I needed much more guidance from other native speakers of the language and if both of you don't mind, can both of you kindly elaborate and give me more details as to the correct usage of this hanyu pinyin. Thank-you very very much once again!

[Hofmann]

The short answer is that "z," "c," "s" are used for alveolar affricates and fricatives, while "zh," "ch," "sh" are used for retroflex affricates and fricatives.

You can hear what they sound like by clicking on the cells in this table. For example, you can compare "zi" and "zhi," "ca" and "cha," etc.

[MayLee]

Hahaha! Hey, friend (I mean Hoffman), you must be a joker by giving me such explanations as to what alveolar, affricative & fricative are all about. You think anyone would be able to understand you like that? You must be joking! Hahaha!

Anyway, it's so nice of you to have given me the link to the hanyu pinyin table. It is very very useful. Thanks a lot.

On the other hand, I am still not clear as to when we should add in an "h" or not add in an "h" to our findings of the Chinese hanyu pinyin character set. Can you please elaborate?

Thank-you very very much once again! Thank-you for taking the time and trouble to answer me.

Have a nice day ya!

[jbradfor]

Hahaha! Hey, friend (I mean Hoffman), you must be a joker by giving me such explanations as to what alveolar, affricative & fricative are all about.

You asked a grammar question, you got a grammar answer. Hoffman even provided you links to the definitions in case you didn't know them. That sounds like a really good answer to me.

[MayLee]

Hello, Mr. Jbradfor! I think you have got me wrong. You didn't follow what I was asking. I was asking the question of how we should search for a Chinese character in hanyu pinyin for example if we are looking for the Chinese character "知", should we add in an "h" or don't add in an "h" when we are keying in the hanyu pinyin of "知" which is supposed to be "zhi " instead of "zi". Understand my question? I still don't know when to add in an "h" or not add in an "h" in my search yet. Understand?

[gato]

for example if we are looking for the Chinese character "知", should we add in an "h" or don't add in an "h" when we are keying in the hanyu pinyin of "知" which is supposed to be "zhi " instead of "zi". Understand my question?

You are asking what determines the standard Mandarin pronunciation of a character. The answer is that standard Mandarin pronunciation is based on the Mandarin used in the Beijing region. "Zhi" is how people who speak Beijing-area Mandarin pronounces the character "知". A committee of scholars who works for the Chinese government determined that it is the case and recorded that fact in standard Mandarin dictionaries (汉语规范字典).

There is no general rule for determining when a character should be pronounced with z or zh, as far as I know. You just have to learn it by rote and practice.

[MayLee]

Hello, Mr. Gato! Thank-you very much for your answer. I think you are somewhere closer to the answer that I want. But I think I already have the answer to my question just now from a friend. As according to her, I must know the exact pronunciation of a Chinese character that I am searching for before I can find the character easily. For e.g. I must know exactly the character is pronounced as "zhi" and not "zi" in order for me to find out the character easily.

Thank-you so much to everybody who has taken the trouble and time to answer me. Thank-you!

Have a pleasant evening!

[renzhe]

I would take a closer look at your learning materials.

"Zh" and "z" sound very different in standard Mandarin. It should be pretty obvious when to look for "zhi" and when to look for "zi". Don't think of it as "adding h", the two are different sounds altogether. "Zh" sounds similar to 'j' in 'jungle'.

Many speakers from the south often confuse these two, which is why the posters here assumed that you might be from the south of China.

If you want to learn standard Mandarin pronunciation, you should make sure that your teaching materials reflect this difference. This will save you a lot of trouble.

[chrix]

Let me also add that many Malaysian Chinese speak Minnanyu or Hakka as their mother tongues, and thus you might get the same interference effects... The owner of my local Chinese restaurant is from Penang, a native speaker of Minnanyu and his Mandarin has the same merger

[MayLee]

Hello, Renzhe! It's so nice of you to have post your comments even after knowing that I have found the answer to my question. Thanks a lot. You are so cute! I will remember your recommendations. Thank-you!

Enjoy your evening!

[MayLee]

Hello, Chrix! Over here in Malaysia, we don't speak Minnanyu lah, ok? We are not Taiwanese lah and I have hardly heard of the existence of Minnanyu if not for the Taiwanese dramas being shown here lah.

[renzhe]

How do you know, if you don't speak Chinese?

I've met Mandarin and Cantonese native speakers from Malaysia, and it doesn't seem unlikely that there are some Minnanese speakers there too.

[chrix]

Sayangnya kamu salah... Minnanyu is not only spoken in Taiwan... Have a look at this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penang_Hokkien

NB: differences between different varieties of Minnanyu can be stark. Hokkien speakers from Malaysia and Indonesia do not necessarily understand Taiwanese Hokkien, but nevertheless these speech varieties all belong to Minnanyu/Hokkien...

EDIT: According to the Wikipedia article, most Penang Hokkien speakers speak something close to the Zhangzhou dialect, whereas in Southern Malaysia they speak something akin to the Amoy dialect. Taiwanese is close to the Amoy dialect. Since I'm not a native of Hokkien, I can't tell how different Zhangzhou, Amoy and Taiwanese are, but FWIW, I met a Hokkien speaker from Kalimantan Barat once, and he told me that he couldn't understand Taiwanese at all.

[chrix]

yes, renzhe, the vast majority of Chinese immigrants to Southeast Asia came from three language groups, Cantonese, Hokkien/Minnanyu and Hakka. So whenever I meet a Chinese person from there, I usually ask which one