Pinyin 'c' 's' and 'r'

[Joshaurusrex]

Hello Forum,

I have decided to learn Mandarin (absolute beginner) and have been advised to learn Pinyin first. I found some online resources (Which I will link at the bottom) to help me begin learning, they have audio samples to help practice. At the moment I am at the very beginning learning the initials but I am having a problem interpreting how some of them are pronounced ('c' 's' 'r'). I was hoping someone could try and give me some hints as to how and pronounce them.

I am also interested in finding a website with online instructors to teach me Mandarin as where I live there are no language classes or courses running etc, I have seen one of the threads on this forum linking ones that give free trials, but if you know of any good ones that you have had experience with, please list them!

Thank you.

[Joshaurusrex]

Sorry I forgot to post the links to the websites I found. Here they are.

Chinese Learner

http://www.chineselearner.com/pinyin/pinyin-initials.htm

and

Instant Speak Chinese

http://www.instantspeakchinese.com/pinyin/index.cfm

Notice the Pinyin for 'r' is different.

[chrix]

what do you mean, the "pinyin for r" is different?

[renzhe]

The best way to learn these things is from emulating native speakers. In the absence of this, emulating audio samples. You really should link the pinyin chart you're referring to, otherwise we don't know how accurate it is.

The "c" is a sound that doesn't exist in English, but it's close to "ts" at the end of "cats". It's one sound, as if saying both "t" and "s" at the same time.

"s" is the same as in English.

"r" is another sound that doesn't exist in English, and it's quite rare in other languages. It's somewhere between a hard, rolled 'rr' like in Spanish and a soft 'g' in "mirage". Your best bet with this one is to listen a lot and try to get it right. A soft "r" as in American English is close enough as a first approximation, but incorrect.

Most self-learners on here will use a combination of resources, including a good textbook (with audio/dvd material), podcasts and TV series, flashcard programs and native reading material (from children comics to serious stuff). Most of this stuff is free and you can find lots of threads if you search for these keywords.

I absolutely recommend getting a decent textbook if you're self-studying. They are not that expensive and will save you from lots of pitfalls. Then use the web resources as additional input.

[renzhe]

what do you mean, the "pinyin for r" is different?

I think he means the pronunciation hint given by the two websites.

In any case, it's NOT the same as "dg" in "lodge", unless you pronounce this very differently than I do.

[Joshaurusrex]

chrisx: Sorry, maybe I am not listening closely enough. I checked a few times and they sounded different.

renzhe: Thank you very much for the help and great information.

Thank you both.

[chrix]

gotcha. To me it sounds like they linked the wrong sound file or something.

All the more reason to get a good book + audio materials

[renzhe]

No, they actually wrote down the word "lodge" as an example.

Which shows how misleading it can be to learn pronunciation on the internet.

[chrix]

actually there seem to be two different sets of standards around, one of which is the "dg" sound. But I'm not sure how pervasive it is, but I have met people who insisted it was pronounced like that... Sorry don't want to confuse the OP here, it's probably better to keep to the sound renzhe originally described...

[renzhe]

I've heard lots of different variations on "r", but it was always somewhere in the spectrum between 'r' and the 'g' in 'mirage'.

It's quite possible that there are variations, though.

[Hofmann]

In Pinyin, "c" represents an aspirated voiceless alveolar affricate. "r" in my experience can range from an American retroflex approximant to a voiced retroflex fricative.

[SiMaKe]

For what it's worth, I was instructed (and found that it's a reasonable way to start) to pronounce "r" like the "sur" in treasure.

[Hofmann]

You guys are going to give me a headache from your roundabout way of learning phonology.

I'll tell you how to make that sound. Your teeth should be pretty close together, from touching to no more than a few millimeters apart. Your tongue should be pulled back about 1/3 of the way from your teeth to the end of your hard palate, leaving a gap about 1 mm wide between the tip of your tongue and your hard palate, through which air flows. Your vocal folds should be vibrating when you make this sound. Your mouth should be open and your lips should be relaxed and unrounded.

Don't get the sound you want? Post a good quality recording of yourself saying some syllables with "r" initial and someone may be able to diagnose it.

[atitarev]

Listen to some examples of R- initial IPA symbol /ɻ/ or /ʐ/:

rè: (for example: 熱/热 - "hot")

Audio: rè

rì: (for example: 日 - "day", "sun")

Audio: rì

ròu: (for example: 肉 - "meat")

Audio: ròu

The final -R is very different (although the same IPA symbol is used(?):

èr: (for example: 二 - "two")

Audio: èr

--

It looks R is causing more problems, if you need other consonants, please let me know.

Edited December 18, 2009 at 12:49 AM by atitarev
fixed audio links after testing

[roddy]

You guys are going to give me a headache from your roundabout way of learning phonology.

'Salright, I suspect you're causing a few with all those links to alveolar retroflexives snarks.

[atitarev]

Hi Roddy, Wikimedia has a number of publicly available audio files. Perhaps we could have a sticky page with all (or complex) the initials/finals, which are often sought by learners (like in my previous post).

Explaining how to pronounce a sound doesn't always work, even if it does, there is no substitute for listening to it personally.

[roddy]

If you want to make the post up, that sounds good. Might be wise to upload the files here (if the licensing allows) in case they move in the future. I can upload them directly to the server, will save a lot of time. But there are plenty of pinyin charts available, do we need another one?

Explaining how to pronounce a sound doesn't always work, even if it does, there is no substitute for listening to it personally

But you've already learned how many languages? There can't be many phonemes you haven't heard. If you're monolingual you'll likely hear a new phoneme as one you already know and make that, or if you're lucky come up with some approximation.

[atitarev]

I'll find out if they are allowed to be used outside Wiki. But you think it's not worth it? Then maybe the post with links to pinyin charts and audio could be posted up? My post has only 4 audio links, not worth making sticky, if you were serious.

But you've already learned how many languages? There can't be many phonemes you haven't heard. If you're monolingual you'll likely hear a new phoneme as one you already know and make that, or if you're lucky come up with some approximation.

But you've already learned how many languages? There can't be many phonemes you haven't heard.

I was just referring to people trying to help others who haven't heard the phonemes yet. I am only learning. Jack of all trades, master of none.

[roddy]

I'm happy to have another one here. What might be useful would be to have the audio files in an easy to remember place - ie, chinese-forums.com/pinyin/zhong1.mp3 for zhōng - that way anyone who wants to link to it should be able to do so without having to track down the file.

[atitarev]

Perhaps they can't be downloaded and reused, only linked.

This is the licensing information:

Commons:Reusing content outside Wikimedia