I need to build spontaneous thinking/speaking

[querido]

Thank you everyone.

Back to the original topic, and along more conventional lines (for maximum helpfulness), I'll offer a restatement of the problem that might look familiar to more people.

Last year, doing word-only, recognition-only flashcards, I bulked up my word collection, but it became clear that I possessed little actual usable language. Listening comprehension and reading aloud, yes, but unprompted or on-the-fly production near absolute zero- a paradox it seemed. Maybe the answer is simply, that doing both recognition *and* production flashcards is not actually superfluous. Maybe the knowledge doesn't "flip" as easily as I had expected. Has anyone else here crammed a mass of words recognition-only and then suddenly realized that they were unusable in production?

Listening comprehension: good but not production.

Reading aloud: production of pronunciation you could say, recollection of pinyin and meaning on-the-fly, but it isn't production of Chinese words- I'm looking right at them, words I already know!

So, furiously listening and reading aloud were not helping this issue in this thread, as became clear, and my recognition-only flashcards- just treading water. I kept thinking "they're almost useless!", and I was right in this specific regard, gosh darnit!

So, going back to "Modern Chinese Reader" (containing about 20% of my chars/words), I've flipped and made production cards 250chars/450words, 450 sentences, English on the front. A couple of days ago, I was listening to my already chopped dialogues from this book (about 30 minutes), and I said to myself "wow, I've just about memorized this thing". Yet, the production cards are harder than expected. I hope that means I'm learning something again.

A year ago, my deck included chars, words, and sentences, all both ways. My flashcarding session experience became too grueling, and I switched to word-only recognition-only. It turns out, I think, that that was a big mistake; I should have consolidated and accepted a slower but broader progress. On the bright side, I do "know" 2800 high-frequency words now, which is very helpful from here.

So, my plan is to focus on production of the mostly conversational/tourist/daily-living phrases in Modern Chinese Reader, Yong Ho, CC301, and maybe the vocabulary/phrases (but not the audio) of CPod Newbie/Elementary.

All documented right here (tired of my weeping and wailing?): six months to think through and turn myself toward a new plan... worse than an ocean liner... but not the Titanic.

[renzhe]

I don't know. I found that, given enough listening, many words become much easier to produce, you just need to use them several times in conversation. It would probably be much slower if I didn't already have the passive recognition and listening practice (for context and pronunciation).

Not everything will work perfectly, of course. But then you can concentrate on the words that are tricky, which should be less than doing production on everything. Producing a word given a prompt is still not the same as producing it in a sentence and in context. You need lots of exposure to context for that.

The key, however, is lots of listening and reading. Lots. Like, really lots.

Having said that, speaking (and langdu) is the area where I'm lagging at the moment. Somewhat understandable considering that I spend so little time on it compared to other things, but I've been thinking about ways to improve my active speaking. One of the things is concentrate on tones and pronunciation in general by doing langdu drills. The other one is to prepare words and topics ahead of time and then trying to use them in conversation.

[Ed Log]

Having only focussed on 'spontaneous' conversation (I never read, rarely listen - laziest student ever) it really does help to think of answers and questions and when you start to chat YOU can guide the conversation in areas you know and little by little your range of topics increases. It helps if you can meet up with people who can speak Chinese and you have the nerve to strike up conversations with strangers (they are almost always helpful - e.g. last night someone on the train was speaking mandarin so just asked if on business trip etc and practised for 10 minutes)

[Hero Doug]

Edit: Sorry to take the thread off topic querido, my argumentative nature got the best of me.

[querido]

Whole-sentence production cards (English on the front) seem to be working. I'm up to 700. At first they seemed irksomely difficult and I've had to study grammar. But very gradually they start to pop out automatically, which is exactly what I was hoping for.

Let me say this one more time: I thought reading aloud was production. No, it was in effect only like doing a string of recogniton cards, see? Even now, my faith in reading, my faith in myself with regard to what I can accomplish by reading, makes this point seem very strange. But, it's obvious, right?

Also, some say that production cards are superfluous; some say that grammar sinks in automatically with massive exposure. Well, in my case these weren't true, or were just too slow.

[abcdefg]

Are you still doing on-line lessons with a live teacher as well?

[querido]

I said I accepted the advice, but no I haven't tried it yet. Soon.

[abcdefg]

I misunderstood. I had thought that the "live" phase was already underway.

[querido]

I'm successfully in the system at Chineseteachers.com, having found a teacher I'm happy with, etc..

I posted a brief account of the experience in another thread here.

Getting started was extremely stressful.

Thank you to abcdefg and everyone else for the encouragement.

Edit: I wonder why my signature does not appear under this post?

[abcdefg]

Congratulations on taking this difficult positive step. I hope it bears great dividends.

[imron]

Edit: I wonder why my signature does not appear under this post?

Signatures only appear on the first post you make on a given page.

[querido]

Over three years later, and having spent six or more hours per week with a tutor in person for over two years, I reached four-skill Intermediate (supposedly).

Letting listening comprehension lag so far behind was a very bad mistake; if you're a beginner that's my warning to you.

The worst problem was still not (as I titled the thread) my *own* thinking/speaking in Chinese, it was receiving someone else's thought, in the form of sound through the air with no text in front of me and with no text that I had memorized to call to mind to help me. (I wonder if I have some kind of impediment; you understand what I just said easily, right?)

Since *that* was by far the hardest skill for me, *that* probably should have been the limiting criterion for progressing to the next lesson, not just flashcard throughput or reading aloud.

[anonymoose]

I think inevitably at least one skill will lag behind the others when you learn a language. The alternative is that all skills are exactly equally honed, and the chance of that happening is smaller.

Personally, I feel my speaking lags behind my other skills, and I think it is a result of tones. I can correctly enunciate the tones, but I have to speak very slowly and measured to do so, especially when I'm using rarely used words because it always takes longer to remember what the tones are supposed to be. And that is after having been in China for several years and speaking almost exclusively Chinese every day.

[querido]

Hi anonymoose. I'm sorry I didn't see your reply sooner.

In view of your comment, maybe the advice to beginners should be to somehow determine and acknowledge the weak link as early as possible and to honestly aim straight for it. That calls for strength of character. It might require getting some help, just as in many other areas of life where we can be blind to some glaring issue.

For example, what I saw as attention to detail and perfectionism etc. my tutor described all along as timidity. Really?

I'm starting Cantonese now, her native language, and I hope to accept her advice about how we should study.

[Wang7]

Well, I am not a beginner, and yes, I let my listening/speaking skills lag too far behind my ability to read hanzi, and memorize a vocabulary of 1,500 to 2,000 words. At the moment I am working with a tutor, face - to - face, and via Skype, and I am failing miserably as far as my listening and speaking skills are concerned. My confidence in learning Mandarin is at the moment non - existence, and I think it's time to call it a wrap on this endeavor. However, a word of wisdom to all beginners, spend equal time on all aspects of Mandarin, reading, speaking and writing, or you will find yourself in the same situation as I. Zaijian.

[querido]

I know how you feel Wang7. I flushed and started over several times when I felt I had to clear my mind. Good luck. :-)

[smartmandarin]

Hi,

 

Here is my advice

 

For beginners, listening to CDs, conversations few more times, then repeat after that many times.

Of course, if there's any sentence you find helpful, you should write it down.

 

for example, if you are listening to this conversation:

 

A: 你昨天买了什么？ (what did you buy yesterday?)

B : 我昨天什么都没买！（ I didn't buy anything yesterday)

 

in this conversation, 什么都没+ V  means "not at all"

so 我 昨天 什么都没  买 literally means ( I didn't buy anything at all yesterday)

 

It's a useful one to learn!

If I were learning Mandarin, I would definitly write this pattern down.

Say few more times until I'm very fluent with it.

Then I try to paraphrase.

 

我什么都没 吃。 I didn't eat anything at all.

我什么都没 做。 I didn't do anything at all.

我什么都没 说。 I didn't say anything at all

 

repeat your new sentences few more times and picture different situations where you can use those sentences.

Then next time, when you come acroos the scenario you need to use those patterns, the sentence

will just pop up to your head then you can say it with no thinking.

 

Hope that helps

[querido]

Thank you smartmandarin.

I've noticed here and in your other posts that your English is very natural. Congratulations! :-)

[smartmandarin]

Hi  querido

You are very kind.

 

My English is okay, there are still questions and comments here at this forum I don't quite understand with my

limited English.

I'm just trying my best to understand people's questions here then help with my experience as a Mandarin teacher.

Thank you for your reply.

Now I feel more confident with my English so I can use it to help with people's questions here.