Mnenomics for intermediate learning/retention

[valikor]

I sincerely apologize if this comes off as just another (of many) posts regarding the merits of Heisig or a "what's the best way to study Hanzi" post. I'll try to avoid that.

My goal: To find some structured program (book, etc.) to help me learn and maintain Hanzi for a beginning/early-intermediate learner.

I am relatively new to Chinese, and would guess I know about 700 characters or so (I "knew" about 460 of the top-500 characters at http://www.zein.se/patrick/3000char.html , with "knowing" being defined as knowing at least 1 word that contains it)

I've always been a dolt when it comes to language (thinking back to high school when I got sent to the remedial Latin class...), but I really love studying Chinese, even though I am horrible at it and can barely order a drink in this language. I have a feeling that mnemonics are the only way I can hope to actually *retain* Hanzi, and Heisig's "strategic order" for introducing the Hanzi sounds like a great idea to me.

I was quite excited when I read about Heisig because I feel that using mnemonics has been very helpful for me before, so why not use them all the time? But I also know others are not fond of it (he doesn't distinguish between meaning/phonetic components, he fabricates stories, etc.). I have spent several hours reading this forum, and haven't reached any conclusions.

There has been a lot of talk about the Matthews and Matthews book, but only covering 800 characters, it won't be able to teach me much... besides showing me a new method, and maybe helping retain something I already know. i'd like something more advanced.

If anyone has a method that they find particularly effective (especially using mnemonics) and they would be willing to discuss it with me, please drop me a PM.

David

Edited December 28, 2009 at 02:18 PM by valikor

[anwenjie]

I'm not really an advocate nor a hater. I just wonder if the Heisig method isn't a detour? I can understand why you would use Heisig when you're starting out, because you're not used to writing and reading 漢字 and it's good to have something to remember them from. But once you're quite comfortable with the writing - which I feel I am also being able to write 6-700 characters - I think it's probably easier just memorising them without having a story connected to the character - however, that might vary from person to person. Now that SRS such as Anki are around it's easy to identify the characters that just won't stick in your mind for whatever reason. And then drill them until they're easily recognisable.

That being said, I haven't read his books. I might be missing an important point. It might be a fun read if you're interested in exploring the characters deeper. But is there any practical reason for using Heisig anymore?

[gato]

I'd like to hear some success stories, if people have been able to reach some level of fluency via the Heisig method. We've had lots of posts on discussing how to use the method over the last year, but not too many on the actual results.

[roddy]

I plan on deleting it once I get 1-2 responses

That's ok, we plan on undeleting it so that the discussion still makes sense. Please note also our request that you don't solicit off-board responses.

[valikor]

Roddy: That's what I was worried about. I thought that if my post just sat here and didn't contribute anything, you would prefer that it be deleted, since this isn't a personals site -_- I guess for whatever reason, I was assuming people wouldn't respond, and would either ignore it, or message me. I'll modify the original post.

[OneEye]

gato,

I'm not sure how one would go about achieving fluency via Heisig's method, since that's not the stated goal of his book. You learn how to write the characters, and you learn a single meaning or keyword for each of them. That's all. Fluency will have to come through other methods.

OP,

I won't go on about this, since it has been discussed before. But fabricated stories aren't really a problem because the goal of the book isn't to teach you etymology. If that is what you want, find a different book.

I've noticed most people's criticism of Heisig's method stems from a misunderstanding of the intentions of the book, or from people projecting what they wish the book covered. I think if he included everything that everyone seems to wish he had, the book would have been several thousand pages. I suggest taking the book for what it is and what Heisig states it to be (see the preface). If it doesn't meet a need in your study, then don't buy it. If it does, then go for it. Just don't buy it with any illusions that the book is magic or that it will bring you to fluency.

[valikor]

Well i'm not under any false impressions here. I studied a bit before, and then I came to Beijing 4-5 months ago and have studied a few hours every day, and the results are very, very minimal. I have fully accepted that for me, it will probably take about a year before I can even hope to have simple conversations (you know, conversations that are at least worthy of being called conversations) in Chinese.

Rather than looking for a magical book, I guess my key question is this:

If a person dedicated 2 hours a day for 6 months to studying Chinese vocab and used mnenomics like Heisig, would they know any more or less than someone who studied using more traditional methods?

Is it purely contingent on the individual, and thus worthless to ask? Or...? I haven't been studying long enough to have insight here.

[gato]

I'm not sure how one would go about achieving fluency via Heisig's method, since that's not the stated goal of his book. You learn how to write the characters, and you learn a single meaning or keyword for each of them. That's all. Fluency will have to come through other methods.

I know what you are saying. Heisig is just one part of an overall program. I'm just curious whether people who have used Heisig have reached fluency using Heisig in combination with other materials. Most of the posts here are from beginners, and I suspect that the drop-off rate is pretty large because lots of people talk about studying Heisig but they don't seem to move on from Heisig. Maybe it's because Heisig for Chinese has only been out for 1 year, but given the efficiency claims about the Heisig method, it seems that one should be able to make significant progress in 1 year (using Heisig in combination with other material).

[OneEye]

I see.

Personally, I've been on and off with Heisig since RTH came out, and I had already learned a few hundred characters and how to speak a bit from other study methods so I can't really comment. I'm to the point now where I recognize most or nearly all of the characters in the book, even if I haven't studied them Heisig-style, because of other study. Still, I'm using the Christmas break to cram in the rest of the characters from RTH so I can be done with it (I don't have far to go so I might as well), and from RTK so I'll know the kanji forms when I begin learning Japanese.

[Guest realmayo]

If a person dedicated 2 hours a day for 6 months to studying Chinese vocab and used mnenomics like Heisig, would they know any more or less than someone who studied using more traditional methods?

It's possible you meant to say "characters" instead of "vocab". If you in fact meant "vocab", well I don't think Heisig uses mnemonics for most vocab, only for single characters. I guess the value of such an approach would be limited, and I don't see how a system would be developed. I mean, I might use a trick to remember that the French word for "but" sounds like the fifth month of the year ... but that's a one-off trick, not a structure. Unlike, of course, Heisig et al with their structured mnemonics for single-characters.

However: I did toy with the idea of using a mnemonic system to remember the tonal combination of two-character words. Following the instructions of the Matthews & Matthews book, I linked each of the four tones to a person I know or know about, and wove that person into each "story" associated with the relevant character. And I then thought about extending that to 16 (or 20) more people, to be used for two-character words -- but never got far with that idea: either it was no good, or I wasn't.

For me, mnemonics worked because they were an unobtrusive and fairly immediate way to remember the key details of a character, until such time as that character became firmly known to me and then I started forgetting the mmemonic, and just remembered the character.

Which brings me to Gato:

I started using the Matthews & Matthews book 18 months ago, not to achieve fluency, but to learn how to read and write individual Chinese characters. Because I already knew how characters worked, and could find my way around Wenlin and www.zhongwen.com, I didn't follow the book completely faithfully, but modified some of the stories and methods as I learned the 800 characters in the book. I then continued to use this method so I can now read and write about 2,500 and, if learning characters was my only aim, I could easily have been at 5,000 by now, probably loads more .... but of course I'm not learning characters for the sake of it; rather, it's as one part of learning Chinese, so of course I'm spending much more time on vocab, reading, etc etc, than just learning characters now.

I should also say that I used these mnemonics in conjunction with a spaced-repetition flashcard system, Anki. So perhaps Anki is solely to thank for my remembering how to read and write these things, and it's nothing to do with mnemonics. Though that's not my gut feeling at all, and I know that the vast majority of the characters that I repeatedly have trouble with happen to be those I never bothered to devise a mnemonic for.

EDIT: Gato, I should add that I certainly have not achieved fluency, or anything like it, in the last 18 months. But that's a long way from what using these methods to remember characters is all about.

[renzhe]

If you can read 700 characters, I recommend starting to read things. Maybe some comic books like Doraemon (which is ubiquitous everywhere you look in China). Reading regularly is one of the best ways of retaining and understanding characters.

Other than that, I also recommend an SRS program, like Anki or Mnemosyne. Put everything you learn into it and let it help you review daily.

I think that the first 1000 characters are the hardest. Once you get past that hurdle (and manage to retain it), things usually become easier. It's still work, but it doesn't seem like an insurmountable task anymore once you're reading comics and very easy books.

Do use any resources that make things easier, like books with mnemonics, but ultimately, it will be lots of work however you do it, and you've made good progress already. The key is to review well (SRS software!), keep using the language, and to stick to it,.

the conversational thing takes time. Keep reading and listening to native materials and practicing.

[chrix]

Why don't you load up the SRS of your choice with the most frequent characters (maybe minus the very basic ones), I've done that with the 2,500 characters after the 1,500 most common characters (i.e. characters #2,500-4,000). But as others have said, don't neglect learning words once you know a certain stock of characters. 字 <> 詞...