Need a hand in finding some idioms

[caramen_22]

Hello everybody,

I am learning Mandarin in school. Recently, our class has been given a project on idioms named 汉语新外来成语, and I have a hard time finding material for it.

Anyone knows where I can find reference or anything relatled to the Chinese loan idioms?

[kdavid]

The Chinese language is so old that I'm not sure how many of its idioms came from other languages. There are, however, many idioms that have the same meaning in English.

入乡随俗 means "When in Rome...", but the actual translation is something along the lines of "When you enter another village, follow its customs".

冰冻三尺非一日之寒 means "Rome wasn't built in a day", with the literal translation being "Three inches of ice doesn't freeze over night".

These are just two examples. If this is what you're looking for, just find a list of English translations of idioms and find some that have a similar meaning in both languages.

[Kenny同志]

Both the above set phrases are not from other languages. They merely happen to have their equivalents in English.

[889]

In the other direction, you have "paper tiger," which the OED cites to Mao.

[Sarevok]

Both the above set phrases are not from other languages. They merely happen to have their equivalents in English.

But this seems to be a loan:

罗马非一日建成。Rome wasn't built in a day.

Speaking of Rome, another one came to mind:

条条大路通罗马。All roads lead to Rome. (I also encountered a variant in the form of 条条大路通北京。)

Another loan:

一鸟在手胜过双鸟在林。A bird in the hand is worth than two in the bush. (it is a direct translation and we could therefore safely assume it was loaned... there is also an idiom with equivalent meaning, which seems to be of Chinese origin: 赊三不如现二).

That's all I can come up with, I might know a bit more than that but can't remember at the moment. Well, I focus my study on the original Chinese idioms, not on the translated ones (which doesn't mean they are not interesting... I can see a nice topic for a thesis there ). But if you google "英语谚语" (or any other language for that matter, but English will provide most results), you will surely find some good wordlists and there are bound to be some interesting loans in there...

[imron]

But do those loans count as 成语？

[Sarevok]

They probably don't, but the first post said "Chinese loan idioms"... In a broader sense 成语 could be translated simply as idioms, but I usually understand them in a narrower sense, as original Chinese words, which are usually (but not necessarily) made of 4 characters and have some 出处 behind them (现代汉语词典 says something along those lines). I would never categorize loan idioms as 成语, but that's just me - there might also be other definitions and I think Chinese themselves can't sometimes clearly differentiate between a 成语 and... a 俗语 for example (happened to me several times - 2 native speakers, 2 different answers).

[kdavid]

Both the above set phrases are not from other languages. They merely happen to have their equivalents in English.

Which is why I originally wrote:

I'm not sure how many of its idioms came from other languages. There are, however, many idioms that have the same meaning in English.

Anyway, here's a post I found on Baidu when I searched 汉语新外来成语.

[imron]

but the first post said "Chinese loan idioms

Yep, but the OP then mentioned the topic of the project in Chinese is 汉语新外来成语, which is rather more specific.

In a broader sense 成语 could be translated simply as idioms

Can and unfortunately often always is.

[Daan]

I have this funny idea in my head that 世事難料 was originally a Buddhist idiom, but I can't remember where I originally read that, or even whether it is true. Now, I just checked both my paper 成語 dictionary and the Taiwanese MoE online dictionary. Neither records this idiom. Is it just me?!

(I do realise that having milkless coco pops for breakfast on Sunday morning while listening to Who Let The Dogs Out might be causing some impairment)

[Kenny同志]

It may be necessary to point out the difference between chengyu and idioms. By chengyu, we usually mean those set phrases having exactly four characters, otherwise the set phrases might be what you call idioms or 俗语.

[trien27]

成语, also known as 四字成语 because they are mostly framed in sets of four Chinese characters, but at times, could be up to 8 characters. Chinese chengyu were always Chinese, never loaned from any other languages. Maybe you meant "proverbs", which might be loaned from other languages.

[Kenny同志]

Yep:)

[chrix]

Not all chengyu have four characters, although the vast majority do. I think the definition is a bit fluid, usually involving the following four criteria:

- four characters

- literary source

- set phrase (i.e. you can't arbitrarily change characters around)

- idiomatic (the sum is greater than the parts)

The more a chengyu deviates from the four criteria given, the less of a prototypical chengyu it is.

Back to the OP's topic: if you mean chengyu that can be sourced back to foreign sources, I can think of the following:

- 以牙還牙, 舊瓶裝新酒 from the Bible

- a book on chengyu I have additionally has the following: 火中取栗, 新陳代謝, 弱肉強食 一塵不染, 回頭是岸 etc.

- IIRC, 盲人摸象 comes from an Indian (Buddhist?) source. Correct me if I'm wrong...

(Daan, I'm not sure about 世事難料, but for what it's worth, 世界 is a calque from Sanskrit.)

BTW, a funny story from this book on chengyu: the author recounts a story at which they're clearly upset about: in 2005, the MOE chengyu dictionary included phrases such as 三隻小豬 (Three Little Pigs) as "special chengyu" and even gave a definition: "形容多用心不偷懶才能獲得成就的一類人". After much ridicule, these words were taken down in 2006. They also cite scholarly opinion that "被選進入成語詞典的成語，都應該經過時間洗禮和沈澱、有特定的語意、並獲得大眾共事的詞語."

[Daan]

(Daan, I'm not sure about 世事難料, but for what it's worth, 世界 is a calque from Sanskrit.)

Of course..forget what I said about 世事難料. I was getting my 世's mixed up.

[HashiriKata]

I just checked both my paper 成語 dictionary and the Taiwanese MoE online dictionary. Neither records this idiom.

I also checked in some dictionaries I've got but couldn't find "世事難料" either. So it may not be a 成語 in the stricter sense, but just a common saying.

[zhxlier]

I don't know if this is related... But at an online forums I visit where the majority participants are teenager girls, I see many saying "...不是我的茶“ （not my cup of tea) which drives me crazy.

[caramen_22]

Thank you all for your helping, especially chrix

I'm sorry for the confusion I've made in the original post. Basically, I was looking for 成语 whose origin can be traced back to foreign source.

For example, 火中取栗 comes from the story "The monkey and the cat", a fable written by French poet La Fontaine. In the story, a monkey convinces an unwitting cat to pull chestnuts from a hot fire. As the cat scoops the chestnuts from the fire one by one, burning his paw in the process, the monkey eagerly gobbles them up, leaving none for the cat.