"Tone sandhi" versus e.g. simply changing word order

[Gharial]

Would you use the same Chinese sentence ("Lao Li mai hao jiu") to express either of the following propositions - that 'Old Li bought good wine', as opposed to 'Old Li finished buying wine' - which is what Chaofen Sun is suggesting is a possibility (on page 43 of his Chinese: A Linguistic Introduction), or would you express each proposition actually somewhat differently from the other?

To me, expressing each proposition differently (through means of differing word order, for example) would beat any possible ambiguity, but then, I am a non-native speaker/student of Mandarin who likes differing meanings to be reflected in differing forms/constructions wherever possible (I find it helps keep the "functions" of whatever language straighter in at least the short term), and I am sometimes rather sceptical of the examples in linguistics textbooks (one wonders how cut off, starved of competition, forced etc they are).

That being said, the alternative Chinese sentences (plural) that I'm coming up with may not be exact enough "translations" (for some people's liking), and there may be a bit of interference from studying Japanese in terms of the word order I'm considering. But the main reason that I'm not posting my alternatives here yet is that I'd obviously be interested in seeing what you guys on this forum might have to say first!

Edited January 9, 2010 at 03:36 PM by Gharial

[HashiriKata]

First of all, welcome to the forums!

Secondly, I'll say something concerning your post (It's not that I've got anything worth saying, but I've got the time):

- I don't think anyone would really say "Lao Li mai hao jiu", except in discussing linguistics. Nothing's really wrong with it, but I expect a real sentence spoken in a real context would have a bit more colour than this "Lao Li mai hao jiu".

- Due to "tone sandhi", there are many ways to articulate the sentences, depending on the speaker. But also due to "tone sandhi", it'll be easy to tell whether the speaker means to say 'Old Li bought good wine' (mai3//hao2jiu3) or 'Old Li finished buying wine' (mai2hao3//jiu3)

(The // represents a slight pause in saying the phrases, if the speaker really wants to disambiguate the sentence via intonation)

But the main reason that I'm not posting my alternatives here yet is that I'd obviously be interested in seeing what you guys on this forum might have to say first!

Now, get off the fence and let's see what you've got!

[Gharial]

Heh, thanks for the welcome, and the reply, HashiriKata!

I guess that in the context of ol' Lao Li having been expected to buy some wine, and indeed having bought some, I'd say something like "Lao Li: jiu maihao le"; and I might insert a 'hao' between 'Li' and 'jiu' if I wanted to also convey that the wine that had been bought was halfway decent ("Lao Li: haojiu maihao le"). (The colon by the way is meant to represent a topic-comment thingummy, and a slight pause in speech). Or I might say "Lao Li mai le liang ping (hen) hao (de) jiu" if I wanted to add such extra information. Anyway, like you say HK (can I call you that?), a bit more colour wouldn't go amiss, and that IMHO could involve combining the aspects of completion in terms of buying, and the fact that some good wine was bought. But again, I do feel that my Chinese is getting a bit rusty (and wasn't that high a level in the first place!), so other people's takes on this would still be very welcome!

[anonymoose]

I also think it is unlikely that anyone would say the sentence like this. To my non-native speaker ears, the sentence sounds incomplete when taken in isolation. I guess the sentence would be acceptable in context, but then the context would probably make the intended meaning clear.

In reality, I think the particle 了 le would be included in the sentence. The ambiguity would then naturally be cleared up, since "lao li mai hao le jiu" would then clearly mean "Lao Li finished buying wine", whereas "lao li mai le hao jiu" would mean "Lao Li bought good wine".

[Daan]

I agree with anonymoose that a 了 particle seems called for

[Gharial]

Thanks too, Anonymoose and Daan! Feel free to tear into my examples in my reply to HashiriKata!

Edited January 9, 2010 at 03:38 PM by Gharial

[Shi Tong]

As most people have said, no one would actually say lao li mai hao jiu while speaking to someone else.

If they did, it would require further explaination-- what has lao li done?

Has be bought it already? Has he bought good wine?

If he's bought it already it would probably be spoken like this (if we were trying to cut out words!!!): "lao li jiu mai hao le". I'm pretty sure this is acceptable.

If he's bought or is buying good wine it would be something like this: (if we were trying to cut down words again:) "lao li mai hen hao de jiu" (putting in the word for very means you kill the speculation that this might be good wine or bought already).

Here's another poser though, what would this sentance mean: "Lao li yi jing mai hao jiu le"?

Would this be "Lao li has already bought good wine"? or "Lao li had already bought wine"?

[Gharial]

Thanks for the reply, Shi Tong! I see that your answers match mine! (No insinuation intended by sayng that - I'm just glad they match!).