Guangdong / Southern China accents, etc?

[SirDude]

Hi,

Since this is my first post on this forum, I would like to say Thank You to everyone who responds to not only this post, but shares their time with all. It is great to have a place to learn from those who have walked down this path before us! So Thank you!

My future travel plans look like I will be spending more of my time in the Guangdong / Southern region, so I have searched this forum and other web sites for information about the area. I will not repeat the terms some people have used to describe the way Chinese talk in the southern region(s), but it made me wonder, should I focus my studying to adjust for this "accent" ?

I do plan to visit / explore the north-eastern areas as well, so I am looking to be able to communicate well through out the country.

Since I am an American who was born in the northern US states, but now lives in the southern US, I fully understand that language takes on different accents (and cultural differences) from one part of the country to the other.

Thank you for your time!

SirDude

[doraemon]

Mmmm...if I were you, I would probably just stick with the standard Mandarin accent (it sounds much more northern than southern though) instead of worrying about learning two accents and adjusting as you travel to different parts of China. You will be understood perfectly when you talk to southerners in a standard northern accent. It kind of sounds better as well IMO. However, that's only my suggestion. If you can learn and use both depending on your location then that would be even better!

[kdavid]

If you're serious about studying the language to fluency and plan to use it in a business or professional setting, you need to study standard Mandarin, which isn't the local "dialect" of the south.

In fact, in the south the local "dialect" is completely different from Mandarin, and the Mandarin they do speak will be accented. If you follow the local dialect or local Mandarin too closely, you have a good chance of sounding like the Chinese equivalent of an Alabama red neck.

If you're just studying the language to have fun and study, study the local dialect. You won't be able to communicate with anyone outside of that region, but it might be fun.

[BrandeX]

Something like almost half of the people living in Guangdong are migrants. You'll hear every variant of putonghua, and regional dialect or language from every part of the country. Cantonese, and Cantonese accent Putonghua is of course also very common. It will dpeend as well what city you are in. Shenzhen is the best example is almost entirely Northern migrants and will have varying accents per person.

[jbradfor]

It is great to have a place to learn from those who have walked down this path before us!

I have not spent much time in that region, so I haven't walked that path, but I hope you don't mind my responding anyway

should I focus my studying to adjust for this "accent" ?

Yes.

But not in speaking; as others have said, your goal should be the best "accent-less" Mandarin you can.

But perhaps in listening. Most CFL teachers are taught to teach "accent-less" Chinese. Overall, this is good. But it does mean that that you will have trouble with "real world" Chinese, with all the accents. So you might want to consider actively getting used to other accents. But I'm not sure how, short of trying to talk to people that you don't understand.

But I want to clarify something that I hope is not obvious to you. The Chinese consider what is spoken in Guangdong (i.e. Cantonese) to be a "dialect" of Chinese. However, Cantonese is mutually unintelligible with Mandarin. So, from a western linguist POV, Cantonese is a different language than Mandarin, not just a dialect. So to learn Cantonese, it's not just a matter of getting used to a different accent, you would need to actively learn it in addition to Mandarin.

[SirDude]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts!

This is tough, I am trying to learn one language that will work for many different things. Since I am not just learning this for fun, let me give a little insight to what I see my future needs could be.

Work / Employment, I'm returning to college, but afterwards I am planning on actively looking for employment in China or for a US company, like one a family member works for installing special equipment in China. So I will need to speak what is most useful through-out China, but see me spending most of my time in the Southern Region.

Fun I plan on seeing the sights, I haven't yet starting to look into what is available, but I like to hike and rock-climb / mountaineering, so I would love to add China to my list of places I have climbed. I think this would take me mostly to northern China???

The biggest attraction I have to China is Architecture, Wood-working / Furniture making, and living in smaller homes / living daily life with less items. If I learn nothing more from studying about China, I want to learn how to make the most out of a smaller home. I have see shows on different parts of Asia and their homes, I am amazed at how most items have two or more uses or can be easily moved out of the way when not in use. (Spoken like a true engineer, always looking to make it smaller or better! haha)

Personal I have looked over the pass year or two at doing some volunteer work in some rural areas, if I can find somewhere in China to help out, while maybe learning about their farming, that would be high on travel plans. I am not sure if ESL, TESOL, etc is for me, and since I don't have my BA degree yet, I don't think I can work in that field.

And last, since I will soon be single again, I can't not leave out meeting someone. This is not my reason for wanting to travel to China, but I can't not deny the fact that I am attracted to Chinese women.

So all this leave me a little confused, I have read about the accents, and I have also read that a lot of the Guangdong region speaks Cantonese. Something that JBradfor backed up in his reply. Then there's the whole learning from a real person, maybe someone online or a native speaker here in the US. How do I know they are speaking accent-free Mandarin? It has been said on this forum and else-where, how hard it is to un-do bad habits, then to learn the right one the first time around.

Thank you, I hope this information helps.

SirDude

[SirDude]

jbradfor said:

The Chinese consider what is spoken in Guangdong (i.e. Cantonese) to be a "dialect" of Chinese. However, Cantonese is mutually unintelligible with Mandarin. So, from a western linguist POV, Cantonese is a different language than Mandarin, not just a dialect. So to learn Cantonese, it's not just a matter of getting used to a different accent, you would need to actively learn it in addition to Mandarin.

So if I understand this correctly, would I need to learn both Mandarin AND Cantonese or can someone study just Cantonese? I see most study programs have a Cantonese program, but always thought Mandarin was more of the main-steam Chinese.

I am trying to watch my words, as I fear putting my foot in my mouth when talking about a country or language that I know very little about.

Thank you,

SirDude

[xiaocai]

So if I understand this correctly, would I need to learn both Mandarin AND Cantonese or can someone study just Cantonese? I see most study programs have a Cantonese program, but always thought Mandarin was more of the main-steam Chinese.

Standard Mandarin is the only official spoken language in China, not just the main-stream one. You can just study Cantonese if you wish to, and it is probably strongest Chinese dialect, but the use of it is still very limited outside of the area.

[b_t_v]

I'd say, for business purposes, it makes sense to learn the language that highest possible number of people understand. Even in Guangdong, this is Mandarin. Everyone below the age of 40 (don't know where exactly the cut-off is) will speak Mandarin. Most people above that age will still be able to speak Mandarin, although the older the stronger the accent if they're natives. I only personally met one person that couldn't communicate in Mandarin. However, she must have been at least 80 years old. Also, I saw once a shop assistant trying in vain to communicate in Mandarin with an elderly lady who obviously only knew Cantonese. That's about it as far as my experience with Cantonese-only speakers goes.

On the other hand, I have met several people who were not able to speak Cantonese. Most of them were out-of-province, but at least one of them was a GD native. Apparently, in the north of GD, along the border with Hunan, people already don't speak Cantonese anymore.

Caveat: I don't know the situation in Hong Kong or in extremely rural areas.

[anonymoose]

This is tough, I am trying to learn one language that will work for many different things.

No, it's very simple. Standard Mandarin is what you need.

If you want to learn different accents or dialects for fun later, fine, but for practical purposes, Mandarin is unquestionably the language you should be learning.

[BrandeX]

Caveat: I don't know the situation in Hong Kong or in extremely rural areas.

You will probably never be in (or have any reason to deal with people in) extremely rural areas, and unless they never went to school in their life, they probably know mandarin anyway. Hong Kong isn't a big deal, nearly everyone speaks English.

[animal world]

To the OP: unless you're an old hand at Chinese, you'll probably speak Chinese with an American accent, so why complicate it further to your audience by randomly throwing in words spoken with a southern accent?

[SirDude]

Wow, thank you for all the insight!

I think everyone has made it very clear that it will be safe to studying standard Mandarin. I will just have to make due in any rural areas if I do any volunteer work or traveling. Plus I would think there would be some kind of guide helping the volunteers communicate.

Thank you to everyone, this means I can start studying something now! But please feel free to add your thoughts on anything you feel I might need to study.

Have a wonderful day!

SirDude

[SirDude]

Hello,

The other night I came across a web site that had pictures from a couple of the areas or the type of areas I would like to visit.

I thought I would share this and maybe it will give some insight into what types of towns or villages I might be traveling to and what people I will need to communicate with.

http://www.terragalleria.com/asia/china/china.html

These are NOT my pictures, but this person traveled to most of the areas I was looking.

Enjoy,

SirDude

[BrandeX]

Those are all major cities where everyone will speak Mandarin. (Or English in the case of the HK pic).

[Shi Tong]

1) Mandarin is spoken most widely, and it's almost certainly the easiest Chinese language to learn.

2) There is not really such thing as accentless Mandarin, though you might want to consider your OWN accent before you start. (Northern Chinese people use the er sound a lot more, as do Americans, Southern Chinese have the habit of dropping the er sound and/ or pronouncing the er sound in a rounded way, like English people- therefore if you're from the US, you will probably find it easier with Northern Chinese accents, using the erhua which is used there).

3) Whereever you learn your Mandarin, IMO, it will become local. The only difference is weather or not you will accidently use incorrect Mandarin, or use Mandarin that not many people are used to hearing. Think about who you will be listening to, rather than who you will be speaking to- because no matter how you speak, you will most probably be understood, but if they reply in something you're not used to, you will struggle to understand them back.

4) IMO, you might do well to learn Mandarin in Taiwan. They teach standard Mandarin including the erhua which they use in Northern China. This way you would be used to hearing very standard southern accents (especially in Taipei), but you would also know where or when to use erhua if you're in the North.

5) Taiwan has mountains.

[chrix]

IMO, you might do well to learn Mandarin in Taiwan. They teach standard Mandarin including the erhua which they use in Northern China. This way you would be used to hearing very standard southern accents (especially in Taipei), but you would also know where or when to use erhua if you're in the North.

No, they don't. The TW standard includes way less erhua than the BJ one, there are also other differences, mainly in vocabulary. I don't think it's a bad thing, I enjoyed it a lot, but anyone planning to study Mandarin in Taiwan has to be aware of these differences...

[Shi Tong]

The people dont use Erhua as much as mainlanders of course. In fact, I'd say they dont use it at all.

That said, when I learned Mandarin in Taiwan, I was taught erhua- even to the point where when I was speaking to Taiwanese people, they wouldn't understand what I meant because I put an er on the end of some of the words where they wouldn't.

The differences, I think, are few and far between, like Taiwanese saying "wo zhi dao" instead of "wo ming bai". Not only that, but if he's planning on speaking to people from the South, then he will want to be speaking a similar brand of Mandarin.

My teacher even told me that she HAD to teach me the er hua versions of words, because that was STANDARD Mandarin, not Taiwanese Mandarin.

Of course, I would say that if you were going to spend all your time in Beijing, then learn Mandarin in Beijing, but it seems to me like Sir Dude will be spending it elsewhere, so why not help with that by learning a really good standard Mandarin in an area he will be staying in a lot?

[anonymoose]

The differences, I think, are few and far between, like Taiwanese saying "wo zhi dao" instead of "wo ming bai".

Mainlanders say both, in approximately equal frequency, as far as I can tell.

[chrix]

Shi Tong, I wasn't referring to the way people speak, I was referring to the way Mandarin is taught. Of course every teacher has their own way of teaching, but it is quite hard to teach something that is absent from your own Mandarin variety. I have the impression that they teach you some standard erhua words, but then skip over the rest...