Guangdong / Southern China accents, etc?

[Shi Tong]

Hello Chrix,

Maybe you're right, I'm not sure. The only thing I can say is that "Shi Ting Hua Yu" has erhua words throughout the textbook as you learn. Maybe there are missing erhua words.

To be honest, I think I've only met about 2 people who have ever spoken erhua in their Mandarin, which is why sometimes I wonder if it's worth learning at all.

[chrix]

To be honest, I think I've only met about 2 people who have ever spoken erhua in their Mandarin, which is why sometimes I wonder if it's worth learning at all.

I guess you've never been to Beijing then... Otherwise, look out for the older actors on Taiwanese television, they tend to use a lot of erhua...

[Shi Tong]

Sorry, I fail to see what this has to do with the conversation in hand.

The point is weather or not it's worth SirDude learning a heavily erhua standard of Mandarin if he's planning on spending most, if not all of his time in the South of China.

I've not been to Beijing, but I'm not as ignorant as to believe that people there dont speak with erhua. I know that people in Beijing speak with lots of erhua, but my point is that, people in the South of China, along with a lot of people, even from big cities or near to Beijing, DONT speak with erhua.

So if SirDude is going to go to Shanghai, Taiwan and Chengdu, along with a lot of other Soutern regions, what is the point in learning heavily erhua affected Mandarin where he may find it harder to understand?

Sorry, if you want to learn English and you are going to England to live, explain why you would learn American English?

[chrix]

Where did he say he's going to Taiwan? Also at first it wasn't even clear what he meant by "accent", it seems that at times he was referring to Cantonese and not to Mandarin with a Southern accent.

It was you who brought up the teaching of erhua, that's what I was responding to.

Maybe we should ask someone who has actually studied Mandarin in Southern China, and can report about how erhua was taught there. At least for Shenzhen I wouldn't be surprised if it was prevalent there given that it is full of immigrants from outside Guangdong...

Frankly, I don't see the point of you bringing up erhua here. He'll have to adjust to how people use Mandarin "on the street" in Southern China, but it's still better for him to be exposed to the standard language in the mainland. I fail to see how studying in Taiwan would be more helpful.

[anonymoose]

In Shanghai (which is usually considered southern China), locals speak almost without any er-hua at all. The er-hua is only on particular words, and even these are very very few.

I've studied Chinese at university in Shanghai. This was at an advanced level, so pronunciation was not taught specifically, but anyway, er-hua was never mentioned, and rarely used.

[renzhe]

Why does every discussion about erhua or retroflexes turn into a discussion about Beijingers? As if only Beijingers speak like this.

I don't see anyone encouraging learning to speak with heavy erhua. But a certain amount of erhua is standard. And it is exactly this standard amount that you should learn. That and retroflexes. You can always adapt to the local dialect later, once you have a grasp of the language and sufficient exposure.

[Shi Tong]

Where did he say he's going to Taiwan?

if SirDude is going to go to Shanghai, Taiwan and Chengdu, along with a lot of other Soutern regions

I wasn't saying that Sirdude was going to Taiwan, I said IF he's going to a lot of Southern regions. This may include these on the list that I put above.

Also at first it wasn't even clear what he meant by "accent", it seems that at times he was referring to Cantonese and not to Mandarin with a Southern accent.

Well, I think we all know that he wants to now learn Mandarin, and so the discussion has developed to a point where we're asking about what accent he thinks he might want to learn from.

It was you who brought up the teaching of erhua, that's what I was responding to.

It's not that I didn't see the point of replying to my points about erhua per se, it's that I dont see how old Taiwanese actors or people from Beijing speaking with heavy erhua have anything to do with Sirdude's situation and what he wants to do.

If he was going to live in Beijing and never leave, I would say, learn Mandarin in Beijing, of course. My point was that since he really want to spend nearly all of his time in Southern China, he might want to learn from there so that he doesn't struggle with erhua.

I'm not afraid to say that when I first met somone from Beijing, I found it hard to understand them. This was because they used so much erhua and they had a really different accent than from people in Taiwan. Because my wife is from Taiwan, I of course, perposefully learned Mandarin with a Taiwanese accent and didn't add any erhua words in, though they were in the curriculum.

Maybe we should ask someone who has actually studied Mandarin in Southern China, and can report about how erhua was taught there. At least for Shenzhen I wouldn't be surprised if it was prevalent there given that it is full of immigrants from outside Guangdong...

Maybe.

I learned my Mandarin in Taiwan and I was trying to offer my advice about it, and that is that all of the learning materials (including the videos, spoken tapes and teachers) use erhua because they are trying to teach standard Mandarin. Learning Mandarin in Taiwan also meant that I was equipped in an accent useful to me- I could communicate with the locals, which is exactly what I needed.

I just dont see how learning Mandarin in Taiwan would give Sirdude a DISadvantage if he's spending most of his travels in the South?

Frankly, I don't see the point of you bringing up erhua here.

Trouble understanding those people who are local to you.

If Sirdude is living in Southern China and learns Mandarin in Beijing, he will probably find it hard understanding those people he wants to speak to.

He'll have to adjust to how people use Mandarin "on the street" in Southern China

If he learns it somewhere relavant with the right accent, then he wont have to adjust will he?

but it's still better for him to be exposed to the standard language in the mainland. I fail to see how studying in Taiwan would be more helpful.

How is Taiwanese taught Mandarin different from Mandarin taught in Beijing then? And what makes it less standard if you're in Taiwan being taught standard Mandarin? -- apart from the accent.

I personally think that anonymoose has a good point there- Shanghai might be a good place to learn because you'll learn Mandarin using a Southern accent which you can use everywhere in the South.

I've spoken to people from Shanghai too, and they speak pretty much like Taiwanese people.

Why does every discussion about erhua or retroflexes turn into a discussion about Beijingers? As if only Beijingers speak like this.

I dont think only beijingers speak like this, but if Sirdude is spending most of his time in the South, why would he want to fill his vocabulary with too much erhua and affect his Chinese to the point where he doesn't understand people where he's spending time.

I don't see anyone encouraging learning to speak with heavy erhua.

No, but there's active discouragement of learning Mandarin in Taiwan, and I dont know why.

a certain amount of erhua is standard.

As is taught in Taiwanese Mandarin schools.

And it is exactly this standard amount that you should learn.

I agree, which is why I think it might be constructive to learn a Southern accent in Taiwan and be taught the erhua words when (and if) you need them.

You can always adapt to the local dialect later, once you have a grasp of the language and sufficient exposure.

But if he's going to Southern China, why not learn Mandarin in an appropriate accent and then adjust if he needs to go to Beijing..

That's like suggesting to me that, because my wife is from Taiwan, I should go to Beijing and learn my Mandarin and speak in that accent.. then adjust when I go to Taiwan.

It was more constructive for me to learn my Mandarin in Taiwan and then convert it if I need to in China.

[chrix]

You should know that I studied Mandarin in Taiwan myself, and enjoyed it a lot. But as far as I can see, the OP has not expressed any desire for spending time in Taiwan, so that's why I fail to see why he would be better off going to Taiwan.

How is Taiwanese taught Mandarin different from Mandarin taught in Beijing then? And what makes it less standard if you're in Taiwan being taught standard Mandarin? -- apart from the accent.

You should really have a look at Putonghua materials from time to time...

You'll find lots of posts where I discuss the TW and BJ standards. Nothing wrong with either one, you just have to take into account that they do differ.

Just one example:

Three words relating to travel, "bike", "taxi" and "bus" are all referred to by different words. This is something anyone trying to straddle both the BJ and TW standard would have to learn, but why would someone who wants to mainly travel in the mainland burden himself with learning a script and vocabulary that partially won't be of any use to him?

Of course if he already know he's going to put years into studying Mandarin, then it wouldn't matter. But keep in mind what his stated goals were: Travelling a couple months in Southern China.

[renzhe]

But if he's going to Southern China, why not learn Mandarin in an appropriate accent and then adjust if he needs to go to Beijing..

Because the appropriate accent is the standard accent, as used on TV, radio, in the movies and theaters, and which is supposed to be taught in schools and universities. It is a part of a language standard.

And this is what makes it the best thing to learn for a foreigner.

Speaking in a standard way will NOT make people understand you less well, and it will actually improve your ability to understand different accents in the long run.

[Shi Tong]

Tell me.

If I was going to live in England, do you think I should learn American English (along with the accent?)

[renzhe]

If you were going to live in England, you should learn Standard English and Received Pronunciation. In fact, this is what EVERYBODY does.

You should not learn Geordie or Cockney. You should not learn to fake the East Anglian drawl. You should not learn to speak with a Welsh accent, nor should you learn Scottish. People will laugh at you, FFS.

And people will understand you just fine, because most of the radio and TV is in received pronunciation (BBC English). Once you manage to get the basic communication down, which is much easier if you stick to a clear and well-documented standard, you can start adapting to the local accent and the local slang.

The parallels are really strong. Virtually all of the media in Mainland China is in Standard Mandarin. It is taught in schools, it is used on public transportation announcements, advertisements, sports broadcasts, everywhere. Seriously, people don't speak Taiwanese in Guangdong or Shanghai, nor will they fail to understand you if you speak exactly as the newscasters on TV. That's preposterous.

And that's my suggestion: Learn the standard. Be aware of local differences (and there are local differences in Shanghai, Taipei AND in Beijing), but try to learn the standard. It makes everything easier later.

Edited February 4, 2010 at 01:41 PM by renzhe

[chrix]

renzhe, while I agree with most of your post, I do take objection to your last paragraph: Taiwan Mandarin has its own standard, different from Putonghua. It's not just some "local differences".

[SirDude]

Wow, what did I start in here?

Where did he say he's going to Taiwan? Also at first it wasn't even clear what he meant by "accent", it seems that at times he was referring to Cantonese and not to Mandarin with a Southern accent.

Chrix, and everyone who's replied,

I feel I need to make something clear when I asked for this advice. I really was hoping to avoid writing this, but I feel it will shed some light on what I meant by "accent."

On other websites I read all kinds of nasty comments about the people in southern China speaking in some kind of "bird" language. They would say "It's all hi-pitched sounds" like birds make. (Please forgive me for needing to repeat that if it offends anyone in here like it did on the other sites)

The comments went on and on about how people can't understand the Guangdong locals, etc etc. So I wanted to make sure I was studying the right language, whether it should be Cantonese or Mandarin, as long as I was going to be able to travel and hopefully maybe do some business if I end up living there.

I just started studying (simple) Mandarin. I think I am up to four words right now. But I am having fun, it's slow, but fun.

I want to travel to as much of China as possible, if I am going to fly for 24 to 36 hours to get to a place I want to cover as much area as I can. BUT, in my research of the country, I found a lot of things I wanted to visit were in the southern region.

This is why I posted the link to this person's pictures http://www.terragalleria.com/asia/china/china.html

The Nature areas and small towns in those photos, along with the general area around Guangzhou seem to be the places I will spend the most of my time. I understand from what people say in this forum, that listening seems to be harder then the speaking. I too have found this to be true, I went to Germany a number of years ago and the little German I studied didn't sound like what the locals were saying. MORE IMPORTANTLY, they didn't respond using the words the study guide said they would use. A lot of them just shorten words, as in "Guten Tag" I found most would just say "Guten", which was easy enough to understand, but when they did something like that with a word I didn't understand, I was left trying to figure out what they meant.

So the saying about the "once bitten by the snake, always afraid of the rope" I guess holds true, I was caught un-prepared once, so now I am making a bigger deal about learning Mandarin????

Thank you to everyone for their input.

SirDude.

[renzhe]

Sure, but there are differences between the Taiwanese standard (which is actually quite close to the Mainland one, to the best of my knowledge, despite some well-known differences) and the way the language is commonly spoken on the streets. And this is what I was referring to.

It's the same thing I'd recommend to someone moving to Taiwan -- learn the standard (Taiwanese standard in this case) as it is spoken by TV newscasters and actors, and adjust to the local accent later.

[chrix]

I've never heard anyone in Germany say "Guten", I think usually you omit the "Guten", so probably you heard "Tag", "Abend" etc.

Please don't trust websites that describe any language as "bird language". This is where you just dismiss the entire contents as unreliable and delete it from your bookmarks..

As people in Guangdong usually speak Cantonese, you won't understand them, period. (And it's really hard to come by Cantonese teaching materials abroad). But everyone in Guangdong has learnt Mandarin, so they will understand you, as long as your Mandarin is up to par. Also, in Shenzhen you have people from all over China, so there you'll hear people use a lot of different Chinese languages, and probably a lot of Mandarin, too.

[chrix]

well, renzhe, from my learner's perspective, I wish the standards were more similar, a considerable amount of my time goes into grasping the differences accurately.

Mind you, it's not like you wouldn't be understood, of course not, but I don't want to get called on for using Taiwanisms among mainlanders and Sinisms amongst Taiwanese. (Like that one time I used 軟體 instead of 軟件)

[SirDude]

Please don't trust websites that describe any language as "bird language". This is where you just dismiss the entire contents as unreliable and delete it from your bookmarks..

Chrix, I did delete the site, that's why I can't even go back to double check or to link to it.

And I think you were right about the German, either way I wasn't ready for it so it cuaght my off guard.

So Cantonese speaker usually know / understand Mandarin, but I won't understand them? I know I am going to stumble a lot while there, but if this is going to be the case, should I before I go there should I try to learn at least I few Cantonese words?

[chrix]

Oh sorry, they will also be able to speak Mandarin back to you, it's just like they won't usually use it amongst themselves. And sure, it'll be a great idea to learn a bit of Cantonese as well. Usually people like it when you try and pick up their mother tongue.

[renzhe]

SirDude,

China is a vast country, where a huge number of languages, regionalects and dialects are spoken. This is especially true for the south. There is no chance for anyone to learn all of them.

The official language of the PRC is a standardised dialect based on Mandarin. For the last few decades, it has been aggressively promoted in the media, TV, radio, movies, schools, universities, and everywhere else as the only standard, official language, and often at the expense of the local dialects.

One of the results of this is that many younger Chinese today are bilingual: they speak their local dialect/regionalect, and they speak Standard Mandarin (referred to as Putonghua or Guoyu) as a second language. Without any doubt, Standard Mandarin is the most widely spoken thing you'll encounter in China (Hong Kong and Macau are notable exceptions), and is what you should be learning.

Many people in China will have a non-standard accent when speaking Standard Mandarin. In the south, it is common to merge retroflex sounds such as sh, ch and zh into the s, c, and z sounds, and there are many many other peculiarities which depend on the region, and the local dialect. Shanghainese (and people from the Jiangsu province) tend to merge the -n and -ng finals, the northerners often roll their tongues excessively and are hard to understand as a result and so on and so forth. Each region has their own peculiar accent, which is often related to the pronunciation of the local dialect.

The main discussion here has been whether you should learn the standard pronunciation of standard Mandarin (as spoken on the TV, radio, etc.), or whether you should try to learn the local accent (Mandarin accent, not the dialect) of the region you will be visiting from the beginning.

I believe that it is a much better use of your time to concentrate on the standard pronunciation, because ALL the books, ALL the study material, and pretty much ALL the TV and movie material from the mainland will use that (or something very close to it), and to leave the local accent for later, when you actually need it. By all mean, try to get exposure to the different accents, as this will help you, but I don't think that it makes sense to insist on learning a Mandarin-Shanghainese hybrid or a Cantonese-Mandarin hybrid as your first Chinese dialect. I believe that the easiest way to proceed is to learn the standard Mandarin the best you can (knowing that not many people speak it perfectly), and then adapt to the local accent later.

[SirDude]

Thank you, I feel better about all this.