Guangdong / Southern China accents, etc?

[Shi Tong]

Hello!

I agree with everyone here that you should learn Standard Mandarin, and Chrix is right, Standard Mandarin in Taiwan differs from the standard which is in mainland China, in that some of the vocabulary is different.

I must say though, that I've spoken my Mandarin with a Taiwanese accent and actually had many mainland chinese people (people from Shanghai and Northern Haerbin) actually comment "but you dont have a Taiwanese accent",mainly because Mandarin spoken in Taipei (which is where I learned) has very little in the way of odd inflections.

They are very good at seperating Mandarin from Taiwanese (which is actually almost exactly the same as fujien hua- another Chinese language), and I only add my Taiwanese inflections if I want to, and they are few and far between.

However I really wanted to make this point:

If you were going to live in England, you should learn Standard English and Received Pronunciation. In fact, this is what EVERYBODY does

NO. Not everyone studies STANDARD English, some people study American English (like my wife did), and some British English.

There are two standards, which are both just as valid and correct as each other.

The main differences are some vocabulary and accent.

My wife, when she first came to the UK, found it hard to understand my accent, DISPITE the fact that I speak very clear Southern English. This is because she studied STANDARD US English.

Neither of these is incorrect, but the accent differs enough to make it hard for a person who has learned ONE accent compared with the other.

You should not learn Geordie or Cockney. You should not learn to fake the East Anglian drawl.

Now, I'm not suggesting that somebody learn Geordie or Cockney, in fact, I mentioned before that maybe the BEST place for SirDude to learn Mandarin would be Shanghai, and the reason I say that is because this is still standard Mandarin, but it would be less inflected with erhua, which it is in Beijing.

I would say that learning Taiwanese standard Mandarin is probably the equivalent of learning the Queen's English in London, and learning Beijing standard is like learning American English the way they'd speak it in Washington or some such- not like learning to speak like someone from Glasgow.

I just fail completely to see how my comments are in any way strange or wrong.

Taiwanese standard is just as valid as Beijing standard (but a bit different in terms of vocab and accent).

Shanghai standard is probably closer to Beijing standard, but it would help SirDude with the accent issue, which I do see as an issue here.

Dont forget that really the difference between properly taught Mandarin in Taiwan and properly taught Mandarin in Beijing is as little as ACCENT and some vocabulary- not completely different sounds or tones or different words that derive directly from Taiwanese or even Japanese..

[renzhe]

NO. Not everyone studies STANDARD English, some people study American English (like my wife did), and some British English.

Actually yes.

Almost everybody who is planning to move to England will learn standard British English (which is grammar + spelling) and Received Pronunciation (which is the pronunciation part). Received Pronunciation is also called Queen's English or BBC English. Others (those more interested in the US) might learn American English, but they usually won't learn a dialectal pronunciation.

And just like I wouldn't recommend someone to try to learn to emulate a Geordie accent or the southern twang in the US, I wouldn't recommend trying to emulate a Shanghainese or Cantonese accent when speaking Mandarin. You can always acquire it later. The language TAUGHT to you in Shanghai and Beijing should actually be the same. But yeah, if you're going to live in Guangzhou, it would be a good idea to learn your Mandarin there, though it wouldn't be a debilitating setback if you learned it in Beijing or somewhere else.

And I agree that the differences between the Taiwanese standard and Beijing standard exist, but aren't huge. My friend chrix will disagree, but he's a linguist and I'm a practical man

[Shi Tong]

Actually yes.

Actually yes but no?

Almost everybody who is planning to move to England will learn standard British English (which is grammar + spelling) and Received Pronunciation (which is the pronunciation part). Received Pronunciation is also called Queen's English or BBC English. Others (those more interested in the US) might learn American English, but they usually won't learn a dialectal pronunciation.

That's a kind of contradiction there isn't it?

You're saying there are two standards to work from, and both are correct? I'm also suggesting the same.

PS: Anyone who learns to speak like the Queen would probably sound quite funny

And just like I wouldn't recommend someone to try to learn to emulate a Geordie accent or the southern twang in the US, I wouldn't recommend trying to emulate a Shanghainese or Cantonese accent when speaking Mandarin.

Why not?

You can always acquire it later.

You might be able to.. I'm not a genius though

The language TAUGHT to you in Shanghai and Beijing should actually be the same.

Yes, it is and it should be, (as it is in Taiwan also). The difference is the accent, not the content.

But yeah, if you're going to live in Guangzhou, it would be a good idea to learn your Mandarin there, though it wouldn't be a debilitating setback if you learned it in Beijing or somewhere else.

I disagree.. I think that learning your Mandarin out of context and out of area can be very dibillitating, a bit like learning British English when you're off to America. By the time you're used to the accent, you're going home.

And I agree that the differences between the Taiwanese standard and Beijing standard exist, but aren't huge. My friend chrix will disagree, but he's a linguist and I'm a practical man

:lol:

[xiaocai]

I disagree.. I think that learning your Mandarin out of context and out of area can be very dibillitating, a bit like learning British English when you're off to America. By the time you're used to the accent, you're going home.

Well the thing is I think that American accent is considered standard in America, but mandarin with cantonese accent is not considered standard even in Guangdong. I know many cantonese people are very proud of their own language and some of them even look down up on people speak with northern accents. But I would like to suggest anyone who wants to learn Mandarin that, no matter where you are going to stay, start from the standard accent first, and then you can try to pick up the local accent if you can, unless you are 100% sure that you are not going to go any where else in China or speak to any one that is from other part of China.

I must say though, that I've spoken my Mandarin with a Taiwanese accent and actually had many mainland chinese people (people from Shanghai and Northern Haerbin) actually comment "but you dont have a Taiwanese accent",mainly because Mandarin spoken in Taipei (which is where I learned) has very little in the way of odd inflections.

Really? I don't think so. I would say Taiwanese accent is quite distinct to me. Of course you have to have to a level of consistence when you speak it to have an "accent".

Edited February 8, 2010 at 12:46 PM by xiaocai

[renzhe]

I think that learning your Mandarin out of context and out of area can be very dibillitating, a bit like learning British English when you're off to America. By the time you're used to the accent, you're going home.

Mandarin is spoken in Guangzhou as a second language. People in Guangzhou speak Cantonese. If you want to learn Cantonese, Guangzhou is a good destination.

But going to Guangzhou to learn Mandarin with a Guangzhou accent is exactly like going to Montreal to learn English with a Quebec accent.

You're saying there are two standards to work from, and both are correct? I'm also suggesting the same.

No, you're suggesting that you should go to Taiwan and learn Guoyu without retroflexes and without erhua (which is wrong, even according to the Taiwan standard), and then move to Guangzhou or Shanghai, and that people will understand you better than if you spoke the Mainland standard, which is on TV, the radio, in schools and in the movies.

That's ridiculous.

The difference is the accent, not the content.

A putonghua teacher in Beijing and in Shanghai should have the exact same accent. The TV accent.

This is not always the case, but that's a practical issue. There aren't enough people out there who speak perfectly.

[Shi Tong]

Well the thing is I think that American accent is considered standard in America,

Of course it is. Do you think as a Brit, I should be saying it's wrong and not standard, therefore you should learn British English?

No.

I think that if you're going to spend most of your time in America, then learn a "standard" US accent.

but mandarin with cantonese accent is not considered standard even in Guangdong.

I'm not talking about learning Mandarin in guangdong, I'm talking about learning Mandarin from people who use it as their first language, teach it as standard but dont teach it with an accent far removed from where the OP is talking about.

I learned standard Mandarin from a teacher who's first language was Mandarin and who taught me to (even) speak erhua. I also have a wife who's first language is Mandarin and who speaks very clearly and knows how to say things properly.. I'm not talking about daiwan goyu.

But I would like to suggest anyone who wants to learn Mandarin that, no matter where you are going to stay, start from the standard accent first, and then you can try to pick up the local accent if you can, unless you are 100% sure that you are not going to go any where else in China or speak to any one that is from other part of China.

The original poster is suggesting that he will spend nearly all of his time in Southern China.

If that's the case, why not learn in Shanghai where he will probably get an accent more attuned to those people who he will be conversing with?

Really? I don't think so. I would say Taiwanese accent is quite distinct to me. Of course you have to have to a level of consistence when you speak it to be to have an "accent".

I can speak to a Taiwanese person on the phone and they wont know I'm foreign.

I can speak to a person from China and they will tell me that I dont have a strong Taiwanese accent.

I think what you need to recognise is that a lot of Taiwanese who's first language is Taiwanese and not Mandarin DO have a Taiwanese accent, they would say things like "san" instead of "shan" for mountain and "zi dao" instead of "zhi dao". If you speak with Taiwanese who's first language is Mandarin, you'll find that they dont do this.

The only thing I can say is particular about Mandarin in Taiwan is that the tones are less forced out, and the sounds zhi chi shi are less stressed. If you're speaking correctly, though, you would definately hear the difference between shi and xi and si, but some people with strong accents do not.

[renzhe]

If that's the case, why not learn in Shanghai where he will probably get an accent more attuned to those people who he will be conversing with?

Look, my girlfriend is from around Shanghai and she speaks very proper putonghua, with extremely clear retroflexes and plenty of erhua (she studied in Beijing).

If you suggest to someone like this that she should drop the standard accent and speak Shanghainese-accented Mandarin, she'd laugh you out of the room.

It's not bad for you to speak like the actors and TV announcers. It's actually a status symbol. Many people would LOVE to speak like that. Everybody will understand you. You'll get complimented for it.

Besides, the OP said he might go travelling in the south for a short while, so he should be even more inclined to learn standard pronunciation.

[xiaocai]

If that's the case, why not learn in Shanghai where he will probably get an accent more attuned to those people who he will be conversing with?

Well then the fact is, in mainland China, there is really only one standard accent. And in case you don't know, Shanghai accent is quite different from Guangdong accent as well. So why bother learning something neither standard nor "local"?

I can speak to a person from China and they will tell me that I dont have a strong Taiwanese accent.

"Don't have an accent" and "don't have a strong accent" are not quite the same to me... I think I well know the difference between standard Taiwanese accent and strong Minnanhua influenced accent. But as long as the person speaks naturally I think it would not be too hard for me to tell where he/she is from.

[Shi Tong]

Jeez.

Look, my girlfriend is from around Shanghai and she speaks very proper putonghua, with extremely clear retroflexes and plenty of erhua (she studied in Beijing).

Great.

If you suggest to someone like this that she should drop the standard accent and speak Shanghainese-accented Mandarin, she'd laugh you out of the room.

Great.

Though it's standard to teach foreigners erhua in Taiwan, if I speak with erhua, people dont understand me, so I opt there to speak without it. The OP said they wanted to spend most of their time in Southern China. I'm pretty sure that in Southern China, they speak with very little erhua.

It's not bad for you to speak like the actors and TV announcers. It's actually a status symbol. Many people would LOVE to speak like that. Everybody will understand you. You'll get complimented for it.

I'm not saying it's bad-- where did I say that??

Not everyone in Taiwan would understand you- in fact- it's a problem because people dont speak like that, and I've never been complimented if I say "dianhuaer" or "shangpianer", I just get "what?" and then I had to drop the erhua.

Well then the fact is, in mainland China, there is really only one standard accent. And in case you don't know, Shanghai accent is quite different from Guangdong accent as well. So why bother learning something neither standard nor "local"?

I do know, because I have friends from Hong Kong and people I've met from Shanghai.

The Shanghainese tend to speak faster, but very similar to the way they speak in Taiwan, without the added extras on the end they tend to add in Taiwan.

I think that most people in Guangdong who have learned Mandarin tend to drop the erhua as well, so learning erhua as standard would be a good idea, but the OP might find it hard if everything he learns with an er on the end is frowned at and misunderstood by people on the streets.

Sure Shanghainese accented Mandarin isn't the same as Guangdong Mandarin, but that's because Guangdong Mandarin tends to also be a second language. It's just the hurdle of erhua which I think should be -- NOT AVOIDED-- but guarded against, and taught about- since not everyone speaks with it.

"Don't have an accent" and "don't have a strong accent" are not quite the same to me..

I didn't say they were the same thing?! You cant "not have an accent", it's an impossibility.

I think I well know the difference between standard Taiwanese accent and strong Minnanhua influenced accent.

Of course, there is a difference between the two. One of these accents includes strong tonal differences (in that the tones are pronounced stronger and harder), and they use a lot of erhua, and the other doesn't.

This doesn't mean to say that people from Northern China think that I have a strong Taiwanese accent.

I met a guy a while ago called "Song Xue Ming". Most people would know that in the North, if using erhua, this is probably changed to a slight "er" at the end (Song Xue Minger), but he didn't add it, though he was actually from Haerbin.

He'd met plenty of Taiwanese people in London (where he lives), and he speaks to a lot of them with his "normal" Chinese accent. I found he used NO erhua at all.

When I spoke to him, he commented that "you dont have a strong Taiwanese accent at all", then "the Taiwanese tend to pull the ends of their words out really long, like saying haolaaaaaaa".

But as long as the person speaks naturally I think it would not be too hard for me to tell where he/she is from.

The problem is, would the OP, having learned his Mandarin as standard with a lot of erhua, going to Guangdong or Chengdu, then speak with a lot of erhua and be understood (which is fine), and then find that when they replied, he didn't understand because he's never heard Mandarin without the erhua??

What would he do if he said "nin hui shuo yin wen ma" only to be replied to with "yi dian dian" in a clearly southern accent.

He was expecting "yi dianer", and didn't get it.

Does this make no sense to anyone?

[chrix]

Can you please stop that claiming that teaching erhua is standard in Taiwan CSL. You're not the only one who has been to Taiwan, and some of us have made different experiences. Unless you show me some govt guideline that says so, then I'll be glad to stand corrected.

[renzhe]

I'm pretty sure that in Southern China, they speak with very little erhua.

True.

The good news is that standard Mandarin on the Mainland also uses little erhua. More than in Taiwan, but still comparatively little.

And when people from the north use lots of erhua because they can't speak in a standard way, Shanghainese people understand them fine.

Not everyone in Taiwan would understand you- in fact- it's a problem because people dont speak like that, and I've never been complimented if I say "dianhuaer" or "shangpianer", I just get "what?" and then I had to drop the erhua.

But neither Guangdong nor Shanghai are in Taiwan, so this hardly matters.

People in Shanghai grew up with soap operas and radio programmes from Beijing. Why on Earth would they understand the Taiwanese accent better, when you weren't allowed to hear Taiwanese programmes until very recently?

Sure Shanghainese accented Mandarin isn't the same as Guangdong Mandarin, but that's because Guangdong Mandarin tends to also be a second language.

You do know that Shanghainese is a Wu dialect, and that it has nothing to do with Mandarin, right?

The situation in Guangzhou and Shanghai is exactly the same when it comes to Mandarin being a second language.

The problem is, would the OP, having learned his Mandarin as standard with a lot of erhua

There is no standard with a lot of erhua. Such a thing doesn't exist. You're confusing Beijinghua with the standard.

And if you can find a single Mandarin-speaking person in Shanghai or Chengdu who fails to understand "yi huir" or "yi dianr" or "shenme shir", I'll buy you a beer.

[xiaocai]

I do know, because I have friends from Hong Kong and people I've met from Shanghai.

The Shanghainese tend to speak faster, but very similar to the way they speak in Taiwan, without the added extras on the end they tend to add in Taiwan.

I think that most people in Guangdong who have learned Mandarin tend to drop the erhua as well, so learning erhua as standard would be a good idea, but the OP might find it hard if everything he learns with an er on the end is frowned at and misunderstood by people on the streets.

Sure Shanghainese accented Mandarin isn't the same as Guangdong Mandarin, but that's because Guangdong Mandarin tends to also be a second language. It's just the hurdle of erhua which I think should be -- NOT AVOIDED-- but guarded against, and taught about- since not everyone speaks with it.

The I assume you don't really know that not everyone from Shanghai speaks with Shanghai accent and I would not be too quick to say that Hongkong accent is the same as Guangzhou accent...

There is one point that has been mentioned more than once in this thread: standard mainland Mandarin does not have too many erhua as what you might have perceived. If you ever have a chance to watch mainland news, you will notice that majority of the anchors do not actually say "zhaopiar" or "xiangpiar".

And I certainly would not agree that Shanghai accent is "very" similar to Taiwan accent, not to me at least. Of course you can't stop someone from Shanghai from speaking with a fake Taiwan accent though.

I didn't say they were the same thing?! You cant "not have an accent", it's an impossibility.

I can speak to a person from China and they will tell me that I dont have a strong Taiwanese accent.

many mainland chinese people (people from Shanghai and Northern Haerbin) actually comment "but you dont have a Taiwanese accent"

Then do you have a Taiwanese accent or not? I'm a bit confused.

Of course, there is a difference between the two. One of these accents includes strong tonal differences (in that the tones are pronounced stronger and harder), and they use a lot of erhua, and the other doesn't.

I will just laugh if you insist on saying that any of these accents involves A LOT of erhua...

The problem is, would the OP, having learned his Mandarin as standard with a lot of erhua, going to Guangdong or Chengdu, then speak with a lot of erhua and be understood (which is fine), and then find that when they replied, he didn't understand because he's never heard Mandarin without the erhua??

As an average Chengduren, I don't find my Mandarin is hard to be understood by people from northern China at all...

[atitarev]

Chrix, I can assure you, some erhua exists in the standard Taiwanese Guoyu as well. I invite you to check children's Elmer stories, recorded in Guoyu with a clear Taiwanese flavour.

Edited February 8, 2010 at 10:25 PM by atitarev

[chrix]

excuse me, atitarev, but did you read my post? I was asking for government guidelines pertaining to the teaching of foreigners, where it would be clearly laid out that the full extent of erhua would have to be taught. Children's stories don't really count as evidence here, as nobody is denying that some people in Taiwan use erhua, to a varying degree.

[renzhe]

What is the "full extent of erhua"?

[chrix]

I guess, whatever the Beijing standard says. I mean the Taiwan standard is based on the Beijing standard, but from around the 1920s. I'm not exactly sure what the difference would be between the two different Beijing standards.

My own impression as to the use of erhua in Taiwan in official occasions is that there are a number of marked words such as 這兒, 一會兒, and you might get some actors (especially of mainland ancestry) who mix in more words, such as 玩兒 etc., but that it still falls short of the Beijing standard. Actually I don't have a clear picture of this yet, other than anecdotal evidence, so I'd actually welcome some more substantial data here...

[renzhe]

To me, it seems that erhua is a continuum ranging from none whatsoever (in parts of the south) to extreme erhua everywhere, to the point where you can't hear any finals (in parts of the north).

The actual mainland standard does use more than the Taiwanese one (though I haven't really had a look at the Taiwanese one in detail), but it is still very conservative about it. Usually it's tied to certain phrases, and usually it brings something to the said phrase (nuance or changed meaning). Official standard has very little erhua when compared to, say, the way Beijing Taxi drivers talk.

[atitarev]

Yes, Chrix, I read your post. It may be hard to find the Taiwanese government regulations on Erhua. I am being guided my what is taught to children. I don't think they would deliberately teach the mainland standard knowing it is different from Taiwan standard. Besides, it's not only pronounced, it's written!

...艾瑪說，「我曾經躲在這兒，然後跳出來大叫一聲……」艾瑪依轉身，艾度不見了。他叫著：「爺爺，艾度爺爺，您在哪兒？」...

There are other recorded Taiwan stories where erhua can be heard and spelled. Erhua is generally avoided as it is seldom or never used by Mandarin speaking people of Taiwan in the street.

[chrix]

Any other cases than 那兒 這兒 哪兒, the local adverbs that are the most commonly taught according to my impression (I've even seen Taiwanese people occasionally use those in chatrooms), it wouldn't amount to much in my opinion. Do your books include other cases of erhua other than those?

[atitarev]

Not many, just found 一會兒 and 有點兒 in my PDF file, these words are usually considered too Beijingese but here's the proof that at least 4 words are used in standard Taiwanese Mandarin.

This is from Ghost stories cartoons, can't find the download link right now. It has a big PDF file and cute cartoons, which you can watch, listen and learn Mandarin (Taiwan version) - phrase by phrase or the whole cartoon. These cartoons were discussed on chinese-forums.com. Will post later.

The first story starts like this:

神話志怪

定伯賣鬼

(列異傳)

南陽宗定伯年輕時，有一天在朋友

家喝酒，喝完酒要回家，已經是三更天

了，走著走著定伯遇到一個長相很恐怖的

鬼，定伯仗著酒膽問他：「你．．．你是

誰?」

...