Guangdong / Southern China accents, etc?

[renzhe]

Let's start from the beginning.

There is no such thing as "Shanghai standard", "Guangzhou standard" or "Beijing standard" or "heavily erhua standard" or "south standard" or "north standard". Only PRC standard, which is referred to as standard putonghua and taught throughout the PRC. Sometimes it's referred to as "Beijing standard" because Beijing happens to be the capital, but this does not mean the dialect of Beijing, but the PRC standard. The one standard.

Similarly, there is no "Taipei standard" or some other one, only the ROC standard, which is referred to as standard Guoyu and taught throughout Taiwan.

If he wants to learn Chinese in order to use it in the Mainland (which includes Shanghai and Guangzhou), then he should be learning the PRC standard, at least according to the majority here. If he wants to use his Chinese in Taiwan, learning the ROC standard is preferable. But the two are not that different, and he'll be fine with either.

It is really very simple.

Since you were talking about "heavily erhua standard" and "standard like in Beijing" and "Shanghai standard", I came to the conclusion that you are a bit confused. These things do not exist, and when you realise that there are only two important standards of Mandarin, things become very simple.

How do they do it there then?

A central agency or academy prescribes what is correct, and then it is correct. Period.

[chrix]

Well, as long as the academy standard is accepted by the population as standard, that is.

Sorry, I have to throw in my standard bit here: Correct and false are not absolute values but based on the implicit understanding of the speech community.

I still haven't found any official documents for the TW standard, but my suspicion is that they still closely adhere to the 1920 standard with plenty of erhua and qingsheng, and indeed have lost acceptance in the population. So here we might have a gap between official standard and "inofficial" standard. So you would need to have a look at the mass media as well, and how the standard is defined there. This would be a good dissertation topic, I think there might have been a lot of maneuvering between the Chen and Ma administrations (and linguists like Robert Cheng fought for changing the standard to make it adhere more closely to the way the public speak).

But except for that, I fully agree with renzhe's post.

[renzhe]

I agree, unofficial standards are an interesting thing, but they are extremely slippery things that are very hard to define.

The official standards that are written down and regulated tend to be taught in schools and are therefore quite resilient, even if you end up at a point where the official standard is quite divorced from the language spoken by the masses. And it's an interesting question how far removed the popular speech is from the standard, and how different it is in Taiwan (which has one dominant dialectal influence pulling it in one clear direction) and the PRC (where each dialect influences the taught standard differently, pulling it in many different directions).

Anyway, given a clearly defined standard, things like "correct" and "wrong" do make sense.

[Shi Tong]

I think I should always go through every post I put on here with a fine tooth comb because I keep saying what I dont mean.

I agree that there are two main standards of Mandarin.

I also agree that the best thing to learn in standard Mandarin.

I would suggest that the OP learns standard Mandarin, and since he will be going to the mainland, he should probably learn that kind of standard.

The only thing which I am trying to say is this.. and very clearly this time:

If the OP goes somewhere, like Beijing, and starts to learn Standard Mandarin, he will be in class for, maybe 3 hours in one day, 5 days a week. When he leaves class, he will be walking around amoung the locals (hopefully) and hearing all kinds of different stuff which is not taught in class.

His standard Mandarin class will teach him what most people across China will understand.

What he will learn outside of class is another matter.

If he goes to Beijing and hears a lot of heavily accented erhua Mandarin, he may pick up bad habits from that.

Now, if the OP then wants to go to the South of China, not only will he maybe have picked up bad habits, but he will also find the accent harder to understand.

In Shanghai, from what I understand, they do teach Standard Mandarin.

What I was thinking, was that if the OP went into the streets of Shanghai and listened to the Mandarin speakers there, it may be a closer "version" to that of the South (without some of the erhua). This would mean he would pick up these habits instead of the ones from Beijing.

Are they better habits?

No.

The same counts for all places across China and Taiwan, where habits are formed.

My point is that, if he learns an accent and picks up some habits from places like Shanghai, he may find it easier to understand those in the South who have similar habits.

So.. if I said before "Shanghai standard" or whatever else, that's not what I meant at all.

What I meant was that it's to do with accent and habit- I would worry that if the OP got into habits picked up from Beijing or other Northern style habits (outside of his standard teaching), he would then have trouble conversing in the South.

Does this make sense?

[renzhe]

Does this make sense?

Yes that makes perfect sense.

Though I don't think that picking up habits from the local accent is such a big deal, as long as one is aware of what the standard is.

You said yourself that you learned in Taipei, and that you (and the locals) could keep the two separate. I don't think that it's different in Beijing, based on talking to people who learned Chinese there.

[Shi Tong]

Though I don't think that picking up habits from the local accent is such a big deal, as long as one is aware of what the standard is.

I suppose that's where the contention arrises.

I personally dropped all of the erhua that I was learning because I wanted to sound more "local" and I even added in taiyu coloqualisms, which are actually really useful.

I did make a concious effort to do this because I was never goint to be learning Chinese in order to live in Beijing or something, so it seemed very pointless and odd to me that I should be saying things that locals wouldn't understand.

Being aware of what the standard is, is of course, very important.

I suppose the problem is that, no matter where you learn or live, you will always get a mix of accents and local speech, which may not be contusive to sticking to the straight and narrow. Then you have to make up your mind if you WANT to stick to that straight and narrow!

You said yourself that you learned in Taipei, and that you (and the locals) could keep the two separate.

Taipei is probably the best place to learn Mandarin in Taiwan because most of the people in Taipei either speak Mandarin as their first language or, they speak it as their second, but they know the difference between the two.

There is a habit of people of the older generations to speak with both, but they will switch from one to the other, aware of the switch.

The problem comes when my mother in law forgets that I dont understand taiyu and speaks have a sentance about something, and changes to taiyu half way, and I just look at her blankly, so I still get to use the old "tingbudong" every now and again:lol:

I don't think that it's different in Beijing, based on talking to people who learned Chinese there

That's good, and to be honest, probably expected.

What was their accent like though?

I've found a lot of *simply accent* to be quite different, with stronger emphasis on the tones (not missing out of or changing of, but quality and strength of), and a more gutteral hard edged way of speaking.

Do you think any of these things could influence a learner?

[anonymoose]

Though I don't think that picking up habits from the local accent is such a big deal, as long as one is aware of what the standard is.

I agree. It may cause some problems for the beginner, but as one's standard putonghua becomes better, and with a bit of exposure to regional accents, one should be able to cope pretty well in any part of China.

[renzhe]

Moved from the erhua thread:

I personally (and I'm not trying to be rude here), feel that your girlfriend is being a bit of a snob.

Nope, /I/ said she would laugh you out of the room, not her.

And she would laugh you out of the room because many people in the south of China strive to speak with a standard accent. I know people from Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Hangzhou, Shanghai, Wuxi. Nanjing, and many other southern cities who speak very standard putonghua. With retroflexes and some erhua. Because in the school they teach them to speak like this. Because it is standard.

You will never hear a school teacher in Shanghai telling kids that zh/z doesn't matter or that you should purposefully merge -n and -ng to sound more Shanghainese. If you do these things, your speech will not be considered standard. People don't do these things because they are cool, they do them because they have an accent. Just like French people have an accent when speaking English.

You're not a less valuable person or bad, or evil if you speak with an accent. It's just that you will find it harder to find a job as a teacher, or at a university, or have all sorts of other inconveniences if your accent is far away from standard, especially if you move to a different part of China. A standard accent is always respected. Not heavy Beijing accent, mind you, but the standard.

Glaswegians are native speakers of English who speak English at home. Shanghainese are native speakers of Shanghainese who learn Mandarin in school and speak Shanghainese at home. It's a totally wrong comparison. Shanghainese don't speak Mandarin to each other, they speak Shanghainese. They have a strong connection to their mother tongue, Shanghainese, not to Shanghainese-accented Mandarin. Same in Guangzhou. People will speak Cantonese. They will switch to Mandarin if one of them doesn't understand Cantonese. And then standard is preferable.

It's different than in Taipei. In Taipei they do have a different standard for native speakers of Mandarin (different from the Mainland one).

[chrix]

Command and use of Shanghainese amongst Shanghainese has been dropping continuously, though. It would be a good thing if we had reliable statistics and surveys for this kind of thing, because I think some degree of shift is going on across the entire South, though I don't think the "big regional languages" are in danger of extinction any time soon....

[renzhe]

Reliable statistics are good. Anonymoose is in Shanghai, and probably has more experience with this.

Shanghai is full of migrants nowadays, and they occupy all sorts of positions. You can't assume anymore that everyone out there speaks Shanghainese, so Mandarin is becoming increasingly common. Still, if two native speakers of Shanghainese talk to each other, they tend to use Shanghainese.

I didn't hear any Mandarin in local markets in Wuxi, a city similar to Shanghai in many aspects (migrant workers, industry...)

Another factor is that modern Shanghainese is borrowing much Mandarin vocabulary, so it is already very different from what it was 50 years ago.

[anonymoose]

I was on the Shanghai metro today, and noticed the overwhelming proportion of people speaking Shanghainese, since most of the waidiren have gone home for new year.

[chrix]

Well, very simple sociolinguistic formulae:

Shanghai is booming = influx of many outsiders = mixed marriages = more kids growing up with putonghua only

also

Shanghai is booming = parents think child should learn putonghua first = children acquiring Shanghainese only imperfectly

Also don't forget that the government is actively discouraging the use of Shanghainese in public space, which is one of many signals people do pick up on unconsciously...

[renzhe]

Shanghai is booming = parents think child should learn putonghua first

In the few examples where I've seen this, the parents tried really hard to make sure that the child spoke as close to the standard as possible.

[skylee]

Shanghainese don't speak Mandarin to each other, they speak Shanghainese. They have a strong connection to their mother tongue, Shanghainese,

I think this is good. And I like the Cantonese announcements at the Guangzhou subway very much. (PS oh but I heard it a few years ago. Not sure if there are still Cantonese announcements.)

[chrix]

I think the Guangzhou authorities have a different approach than the Shanghai ones. Though what about Shenzhen? Would they have Cantonese announcements there?

[Shi Tong]

Hello.

Nope, /I/ said she would laugh you out of the room, not her.

You saying that she would laugh me out of the room and you saying that she would laugh me out of the room is the same thing...??

Renzhe. Do you know that I'm talking about accents? Not incorrect Mandarin?

I've never suggested that people speak incorrect or non standard Mandarin- this would include all of the things which daiwangoyu is famous for (like dropping the g at the ends of words, saying x and sh, j and zh, q and ch as almost the same thing etc etc), and to suggest to people that saying things like this is OK, is wrong.

As you said, it's not "wrong" as in, the speaker is less intelligent or evil or less valuable or anything, but that wrong is plain wrong.

I still think there is a massive difference in accents. People in Scotland (who sometimes speak Gallic at home too you know?), speak in a standard English, but they still carry an accent.

This doesn't mean that they drop g's from the ends of words, or pronounce things incorrectly, but that they have an accent in their correct language.

Sure, if you're Scottish and you're speaking in a standard English way, but with a very heavy accent, people in England will still (probably) understand you, but it will be harder.

So what's the difference between someone in Taiwan speaking standard Manarin, without actually incorrect Mandarin, and someone from a far flung Mainland Chinese region speaking standard Mandarin (appart from the fact that Taiwanes standard Mandarin is a little different in vocabulary and some of the erhua).

Surely it's the accent?

[Daan]

if you're Scottish and you're speaking in a standard English way, but with a very heavy accent

What, then, makes you call it standard English?

[chrix]

As I've said before, the last two British Prime Ministers have been Scotsmen, and you surely couldn't hear that from their way of speaking....

[Shi Tong]

What makes it standard English is the fact that the way the words are formed and placed are the same, but the accent is different. Would you say that someone in the Southern States speaking US English was less correct than someone speaking from New York? The only clear difference is the accent, not how correct it is.

Chrix, the fact that the last two prime ministers we had were/ are scottish and the fact that it's not that clear that they are due to their accents (BTW- Gordon Brown does sound mildly Scottish), is because they are making an effort to be understood by everyone in the country. The Scots are used to hearing English accents, and ashamedly, the Southerners are not always used to hearing strong Scot's accents.

I dont think that makes one less or more valid, I just think it indicates an accent.

Tell me, in Chinese, if you hear a Taiwanese person saying shi4, and then you hear a Beijingese person saying shi4, they are the same sound with very similar qualities, excepting that the Taiwanese one would have a less pronounced fourth tone, and a less pushed up tongue. The Beijingese person would have a much more pronounced fourth tone and a much more pushed up tongue.

They are exactly the same sound, but they are pronounced with an accent.

[renzhe]

You saying that she would laugh me out of the room and you saying that she would laugh me out of the room is the same thing...??

I said that she would laugh you out of the room if you suggested that she should stop speaking standard Mandarin with the standard accent. Not that she would laugh you out of the room if you had an accent, FFS.

Then you proceeded to agree that you should learn to speak with a standard accent (whether the Taiwanese of the Mainland variety). Which is exactly what I'm saying.

Please leave other people out of this, especially if you have trouble following the discussion. I've never mentioned your family.

So what's the difference between someone in Taiwan speaking standard Manarin, without actually incorrect Mandarin, and someone from a far flung Mainland Chinese region speaking standard Mandarin (appart from the fact that Taiwanes standard Mandarin is a little different in vocabulary and some of the erhua).

The point still stands that Scotland is very different from Guangzhou, because Cantonese people speak Cantonese as their first language, not Mandarin. So speaking Mandarin with a Cantonese accent (while it's understandable, and not evil) is not something you should try to emulate, IMHO, at least not until you have a firm grasp of the correct, standard pronunciation.

Just like you shouldn't insist on learning English with a French accent so you would fit better with the locals in Paris. If you want to fit well with the locals, learn their mother tongue (Cantonese, Shanghainese, Taiwanese...), don't emulate their accent while speaking Mandarin.

Am I the only one who feels like this?

because they are making an effort to be understood by everyone in the country.

And this is EXACTLY what you should be doing when learning a foreign language.

Edited February 15, 2010 at 05:02 PM by renzhe