Syllables, tones and graphs: Megamix!

[chrix]

Look, you don't explain what you're doing, you don't explain the (nonstandard) terms you're using You can look up the characters yourself in various dictionaries and see if they fit your model or not...

Edited February 8, 2010 at 09:47 PM by chrix
harsh language

[renzhe]

斗 is used as a simplification of 鬥 and is read dou4 when it carries this meaning, such as in 奋斗.

I think that's what he meant with "phonetic substitution".

[chrix]

yes, but the term he used was "homophonic substitution", and his example is one where the tone is identical. Also he doesn't tell us why this case would be different, the motivation behind his question.

[Gharial]

Sorry, Chrix, I didn't realize that simply asking if the use of 'homophonic substitution' seemed acceptable in both specified instances was tantamount to asking anyone to "do my work for me" (whatever that might be). And I would've been quite happy with just a 'Yes' (agreeing with me, as it happens) or a 'No' for an answer. (But no, what do I get, galloping galumphing beans instead!). Then, I never claimed that what I was suggesting as working terms were to be taken as anything but nonstandard (in fact, the whole point of this thread was to ask if there are any sort of standard terms floating around - but from the responses, I guess not, or it's a tricky and/or unproductive area for most). Anyway, perhaps I should now just post part of my list of representative syllable-tones, and let you merrily rip into that instead?:mrgreen:

[chrix]

Well, how can we know if we agree with you if we don't know your premises/definitions... I can't read your mind. I can see a situation where I'd agree with you and one where I wouldn't...

[Gharial]

Hmm (Renzhe), 'phonetic substitution'. Doesn't really do it for me quite like 'homophonic' does, especially if you grant there being differing (exact, versus rougher) degrees of homophony. I suppose the simplest thing would be to add those adjectival qualifiers to the respective descriptions of (homophonic substitution in) gu3 > gu3 versus dou3 > dou4.

[chrix]

Again, we won't be able to understand your conclusion as you don't explain your framework, but whatever works for you, I guess.... Be sure to look in to the 逗 situation in case it has any bearing on it...

[Gharial]

I guess the thing that is really twisting my knickers is that English doesn't have tone...that seems quite difficult to fit into an English-based terminology.

[chrix]

But linguistics has been developed not just for English, it is capable of describing any language if you define your terms properly...

[Gharial]

Thanks for the 逗 suggestion, Chrix...I'm off to persue some more dictionaries now (and let this thread cool down a bit from exploding red-hot magma level...mwahuhaha! (=deranged Dr Evil-like laugh)). But quickly regarding the linguistics though, the problem is that I'm really/mainly only familiar with linguistics as applied to English (hence again this thread).

[chrix]

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression you had already defined your terms and categories and I was hoping you'd be so kind as to share them with us...

[Gharial]

I've looked at 逗 and am not sure of the meaning overlap (i.e. I don't see how it would be a synonym, even partially). The sound similarity is obviously there of course, but any old graph-sound substitution just wouldn't ever do in Chinese, would it!

Regarding the terms and categories, again, see my very first post. Though I will admit that I may be using 'homophone' quite loosely, and not quite in relation to all that earlier guff (which was meant to be more detailed, all-embracing and "technical"). Perhaps I should have started a completely separate thread for the further query I made just now (if so, apologies for any confusion caused). Anyway, I am using 'homophone' more in isolation here, just to relate two specific instances, the gu3 one quite strict, and the dou3/4 one obviously more approximate.

Edit: My post here sort of was answering your post below it, Chrix.

Edited February 8, 2010 at 11:55 PM by Gharial

[chrix]

Where did you define "homophonic substitution" in your first post? Or your framework for that matter? I frankly looked at the image you provided and wasn't too sure, what you're actually doing with it...

Be that as it may, regarding 逗/鬥 I have two dictionaries that mention this, overlapping in the meaning "tease, provoke".

[Gharial]

Yes, I can see that teasing could provoke, but I suppose it all depends on which dictionary you look in.(sh):wink: Mine (what few I have, all quite small ultimately) don't show the characters side by side in the same entry and therefore overlapping in meaning, though one might like I say read somewhat between the lines/entries somewhat, depending on the context one was dealing with.

[chrix]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but what I was saying is that two of my dictionaries list those as character variants, no more, no less. Some character variants are only for certain meanings, not for the entire character.

[Gharial]

Can I ask what dictionaries you're using, Chrix? Not that I doubt what you're saying or want to check anything, I just mean that I'd take them as possible recommendations.

[chrix]

The 21世紀漢英大辭典 and the 中日大辭典

[Hofmann]

Well, the ROC Ministry of Education's 異體字字典 doesn't have variants for 逗 and doesn't have 逗 as a variant of 鬥. 康熙字典 doesn't either, as expected if the 異體字字典 doesn't.

[Gharial]

I frankly looked at the image you provided and wasn't too sure, what you're actually doing with it...

Heh Chrix, I did say 'I'm still working on the more "pronunciation/learner alphabet-related" bits, though I could let you have a peek at the more "character/native orthography-related" half', which is what that radical guide thingy is part of. [it covers four instances of radical-characters that involve full or partial homophony, by the way - ji1 as used for ji3 (which you can see dealt with in the jpeg at radical 22, though quite indirectly on that page at least due to space limitations), and the aforementioned gu3 and dou3/4 (OCD radicals 166 and 72/182 respectively); then, there is 里 (OCD radical 163). I don't think there are any more cases of simplification by (full or partial) homophonic substitution among the OCD radicals that can be characters, but I'd be glad to be informed otherwise:)].

Anyway enough about graphetic guidance (and the diversion into homophony) and back to the main thrust of the thread, pronunciation and hopefully representative sample syllables(/characters) for a (my) proposed pronunciation guide. (Like I say, most charts of Pinyin/the sounds of Mandarin give little or no indication of tone, and certainly not of accompanying characters, which I think is a shame, because learners could be getting familiar with over 400 items of vocabulary useful for communication and phrase-building. I'm talking survival to beginner Chinese here (which might include the occassional written sign or instructions)).

Here then are my selections for A-C (I've got handwritten notes on more, but would need to type that up); any comments and suggestions will be very welcome!

a 啊 (but can be assigned other tones and thus meanings); ai4 爱 ; an1 安 ; [ang2 昂 (BT)]; ao4 奥 , 澳 ; ba1 八 ; bai2 白 (MT); ban4 半 , 办 ; bang1 帮 ; bao1 包 ; bei4 被 ; ben3 本 ; beng2 甭 (MT); bi3 比 ; bian1 边 ; biao3 表 ; bie2 別 ; bin1 宾 ; bing4 病 ; bo1 拨 ; bu4 不 ; ca1 擦 ; cai1 猜 (MT); can1 参 ; cang2 藏 (MT); cao3 草 ; ce4 厕 (HM); [cen1 参 (MT)]; ceng2 层 ; cha2 茶 ; chai1 拆 ; chan3 产 ; chang2 长 , 常 ; chao3 吵 ; che1 车 (BT); chen2 沉 ; cheng2 成 ; chi1 吃 ; chong1 冲 , 充 ; chou4 臭 (MT); chu1 出 ; [chua1 欻 (MM)]; [chuai1 揣 ]; chuan2 船 , 传 ; chuang1 窗 ; chui1 吹 ; chun1 春 ; [chuo1 戳 ]; ci4 次 ; cong2 从 ; [cou4 凑 ]; cu1 粗 (MT); [cuan4 窜 ]; [cui1 催 ]; cun2 存 (MT); cuo4 错 .

Square brackets enclose those items that wouldn't seem as essential to learn. (It's actually been quite difficult to pick the item included in these cases. The entries and frequency information given in the ABC Dictionary has helped though).

The two-letter codes in round brackets indicate and are short for those rough working terms I coined to describe how the given syllable may be viewed, for relatively modest, practical learning purposes e.g. going by the contents of the Han-Ying Cidian, or the information given by MBDG say. (Please ignore these terms/codes if they confuse or irritate you, and just concentrate on the actual selections involved instead). They are:

BT = a "bigraphic tone"

MT = a "monographic tone"

HM = a "heterographic monotone"

MM = a "monographic monotone"

Sometimes two characters are given for the same syllable-tone, where both characters/meanings would seem equally useful to learn.

Edited February 11, 2010 at 04:22 AM by Gharial
Correcting an error

[roddy]

I have a sneaking suspicion this is all going to boil down into the equivalent of five minutes work with Unihan, some text-handling functions, and perhaps a frequency list.