Poetry in Classical Chinese

[Daan]

Schuessler 2007 gives 上聲 for 'to rise', and 去聲 for 'above, upper part', so he agrees with 王力.

[Hofmann]

Huh...using some reconstructions, 春眠 doesn't rhyme.

[Daan]

Hmm? Interesting. Whose reconstructions did you use?

[Hofmann]

Well, everyone's 蕭四等開 and 宵三等開 don't rhyme on this table. I'm guessing it didn't rhyme in the first place, or 孟浩然 was fudging it.

Here is what I've put together, using Pulleyblank's reconstructions. The tones are mine. They are

陰平: 55

陽平: 11

陰上: 35

陽上: 13

陰去: 53

陽去: 31

陰入: 5

陽入: 1

春眠不覺曉

tɕʰwin55 mɛn11 put5 kaɨwk5 hɛw35

處處聞啼鳥

tɕʰɨə̆53 tɕʰɨə̆53 mun11 dɛj11 tɛw35

夜來風雨聲

jia53 ləj11 puwŋ55 ɦuə̆13 ɕjiajŋ55

花落知多少

hwaɨ55 lak1 ʈiə̆55 ta55 ɕiaw35

[chrix]

Here's a 詞 （so it's apparently not a 詩, though in English they're all "poems") usually attributed to 岳飛, of tragic 莫須有 fate..

滿江紅 岳飛

怒髮衝冠，憑闌處，瀟瀟雨歇。

抬望眼，仰天長嘯，壯懷激烈。

三十功名塵與土，八千里路雲和月。

莫等閒，白了少年頭，空悲切。

靖康恥，猶未雪；

臣子恨，何時滅。

駕長車踏破賀蘭山缺。

壯志饑餐胡虜肉，笑談渴飲匈奴血。

待從頭，收拾舊山河，朝天闕。

Here's a translation into Modern Mandarin, and here's one into English including the rhyme pattern.

Also two videos where this poem is sung:

- Mandarin

- Cantonese

[Hofmann]

Well, he was doing pretty well until he said 白 bai. It's bo4. Just like 黑 he4.

Ugh! Even Wikipedia! Comrades (or whatever), I'm beginning to notice a problem.

[Shi Tong]

Hah.. I'm looking forward to being able to read "some" of these.. I feel so illiterate!!

Thanks for the info on the ancient language pronunciation.. I find that particularly fascinating!

[zise58]

mandarin

<赋得古原草送别> fu3 de2 gu3 yuan2 cao3 song4 bie2

离离原上草，li2 li2 yuan2 shang4 cao3

一岁一枯荣。yi2 sui4 yi2 ku1 rong2

野火烧不尽，ye3 huo3 shao1 bu2 jin4

春风吹又生。chun1 feng1 chui1 you4 sheng1

远芳侵古道，yuan3 fang1 qin1 gu3 dao4

晴翠接荒城。qing2 cui4 jie1 huang1 cheng2

又送王孙去，you4 song4 wang2 sun1 qu4

萋萋满别情。qi1 qi1 man3 bie2 qing2

[Hofmann]

Edited February 24, 2010 at 02:57 AM by Hofmann
Maybe I need to say it louder.

[Hofmann]

OK whatever. I'm in a bad mood, so I hope all the 腦殘 teachers get crucified...

...is what I would like to say, but as someone who wants to eventually start his own private school someday, I have to say,

(off topic)

Teachers! You've got to know your stuff! Also! You can't make stuff up! You can't pull stuff out of your ass! That is lying! 誤人子弟也!

(done being off topic)

Now, this is how to read that poem.

離離原上草

平平平仄仄

li2 li2 yuan2 shang4 cao3

一歲一枯榮

仄仄仄平平

yi4 sui4 yi4 ku1 rong2

野火燒不盡

仄仄仄平仄

ye3 huo3 shao4 bu1 jin4

春風吹又生

平平平仄平

chun1 fong1 chui1 you4 sheng1

遠芳侵古道

仄平平仄仄

yuan3 fang1 qin1 gu3 dao4

晴翠接荒城

平仄仄平平

qing2 cui4 jie4 huang1 cheng2

又送王孫去

仄仄平平仄

you4 song4 wang2 sun1 qu4

萋萋滿別情

平平仄仄平

qi1 qi1 man3 bie4 qing2

[zise58]

纠正下

mandarin

<赋得古原草送别> fu3 de2 gu3 yuan2 cao3 song4 bie2

离离原上草，li2 li2 yuan2 shang4 cao3

一岁一枯荣。yi2 sui4 yi2 ku1 rong2

野火烧不尽，ye3 huo3 shao1 bu2 jin4

春风吹又生。chun1 feng1 chui1 you4 sheng1

远芳侵古道，yuan3 fang1 qin1 gu3 dao4

晴翠接荒城。qing2 cui4 jie1 huang1 cheng2

又送王孙去，you4 song4 wang2 sun1 qu4

萋萋满别情。qi1 qi1 man3 bie2 qing2

一岁一枯荣。yi2 sui4 yi1 ku1 rong2

春風吹又生

平平平仄平

chun1 fong1 chui1 you4 sheng1

feng1

参考http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC-OUiG7LIM&feature=PlayList&p=EA77A2B91C1A2172&index=49

[Hofmann]

How about somebody else reply to zise58? I would like to see how well others understand the concept.

I just want to say that YouTube isn't a great source for this kind of stuff.

By the way, The Pinyin for 滿江紅 on Wikipedia has been corrected.

Edited February 24, 2010 at 04:47 PM by Hofmann

[Hofmann]

OK, fine. I guess I have to be the "chalk and talk" teacher. Why do I even bother? For everyone who learns something, there are many others who don't and some who would never believe anything I say (maybe because native speakers get indignant at the fact that a foreigner is teaching them Chinese?). Well, whatever. I'd be satisfied if even one other member of these discussion boards shows their understanding. Read carefully, and if you can't read English, ...don't pretend you can.

離離原上草. zise58 proposed the Pinyin li2 li2 yuan2 shang4 cao3. 上 is correctly pronounced "shang4" according to 王力, as it is a preposition. Good job!...or maybe you just got lucky.

一歲一枯榮. Given Pinyin was yi2 sui4 yi2 ku1 rong2. If this was normal modern Mandarin speech, then it would work, but this isn't normal speech. It is poetry written by 白居易, i.e. it is classical poetry. Also if you read it like that, 平仄 will fail. The first line was 平平平仄仄, so the second should be 仄仄仄平平, usually. When reading classical poetry in modern Mandarin, one should read all the entering tones (入聲) as departing tones (去聲). That is the best option. Reading them as rising tones (上聲) is not as good, because entering tones rarely become rising tones in Mandarin. Using level tones (平聲) violates 平仄. Also, one should ignore all tone sandhi. Therefore, this line should be read yi4 sui4 yi4 ku1 rong2, as 一 has a dark entering tone (陰入).

野火燒不盡. Given Pinyin was ye3 huo3 shao1 bu2 jin4. If you read it that way, I will get the impression that you don't even know what this poem means, and you're just reciting it to look cool. Welcome to school, n00b. What does 野火 do? Does it 燒shao1 or does it 燒shao4? ...It shao4's. i.e. 失照切. Now, the fourth character in the next line is 又, which can only be pronounced with 陽去聲, i.e. 仄. Therefore 不 in this line needs to be 平. If this were an odd-numbered character in the line, then we can fudge it, but it isn't. Therefore it can't be bu4. The only 平聲 reading is 甫鳩切. What does that mean? I admit I was sloppy with bu1, as that wouldn't be very regular evolution. Better is fu1 or fou1, and I would choose fu1, as it is 文讀. Therefore, this line should be pronounced ye3 huo3 shao4 fu1 jin4.

春風吹又生. Given chun1 feng1 chui1 you4 sheng1. 風 would be fong1 in Beijingese if /fong/ syllables hadn't evolved irregularly to /feng/ in the last century. /mong/ syllables also (to /meng/). It isn't a problem here, but it will be if you try to read something like "小樓昨夜又東風 故國不堪回首月明中." Why is this legal? Because this still remains in the bounds of Mandarin and is spoken by native speakers. Pinyin should be chun1 fong1 chui1 you4 sheng1.

遠芳侵古道. Given yuan3 fang1 qin1 gu3 dao4. Correct.

晴翠接荒城. Given qing2 cui4 jie1 huang1 cheng2. 接 is 即葉切, i.e. 陰入. It should be read jie4. If you use jie1, you'll screw up the 平仄 with 侵 in the previous line. The previous line was 仄平平仄仄, so this line should be 平仄仄平平. Pinyin for this line should be qing2 cui4 jie4 huang1 cheng2.

又送王孫去. Given you4 song4 wang2 sun1 qu4. This is correct.

萋萋滿別情. Given qi1 qi1 man3 bie2 qing2. There are two pronunciations for 別. One is 方列切, which is 陰入; and another is 皮列切, which is 陽入. Which one is it? Well, it shouldn't matter because they're both bie4 to Mandarin speakers, but FYI, the 陰入 means "differentiate" or "other" while the 陽入 means "(de)part." The Pinyin for this line should be qi1 qi1 man3 bie4 qing2.

Did anyone learn anything???

Edited February 28, 2010 at 03:30 AM by Hofmann
月明

[Daan]

Take it easy, man. I have the deepest respect for your knowledge and was planning to try to work out the pronunciation when I had a bit of spare time, but calling people names isn't exactly the way to make them feel more enthusiastic about learning. Realise that this is certainly not an easy concept to grasp for most learners - you may understand it well, but that doesn't mean most others here will

[Hofmann]

Sorry. I thought I had explained it fairly well, and nobody asked any questions, so the "纠正下" plus repeating a previous post exactly as if I didn't even post anything and as if I couldn't read struck an ugly chord with me. I thank anyone for their efforts and will to learn.

[chrix]

Hofmann, I also appreciate your work on this thread, I really do.

Just having a lot on my plate right now, and if I have time, I'd like to focus more on grammatical questions that might arise from the poems.

[chrix]

It's probably only part of a poem, but it's by 杜甫 no less:

朱門酒肉臭，路有凍死骨

(remark by a friend while driving by a high society event in the Columbus Circle area in Manhattan)