您们好 is it correct?

[Hofmann]

您 seems pretty new to me. Random question: Is 您 a contraction?

[HashiriKata]

Random question: Is 您 a contraction?

Random answer: Phonologically conceivable as a contraction of "你们", which is a respectful way of saying "你", in some long lost dialect

[chrix]

there's also 怹 tān... I think in thanking their parents for their support, a friend used 怹們 in their dissertation.

[Daan]

I've also seen 您們 used, so if it was originally a contraction of 你們 (which I'm not sure about), it has by now lost that status and is an independent pronoun to which the 們 suffix can be added.

[trien27]

您

No, it's not a contraction.

您, nin2, is the polite/honorific form of 你.

您們 = honorific form of 你 in the plural

怹, tan1 = honorific from of 他

怹們 = honorific form of 他 in the plural.

You use these polite forms when you need help or when speaking with the elderly, your elders, or someone older in age than you, even though you would seem to be in the same age group when discussing your relationship in English. In Chinese due to the kinship system, it's not always the case.

Phonologically conceivable as a contraction of "你们", which is a respectful way of saying "你", in some long lost dialect

Long lost dialect? It's still used in Mandarin, more so than any other dialects.

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_kinship

Edited January 31, 2010 at 06:09 PM by trien27

[Hofmann]

你們？ I don't see it. And I remember someone saying (in a Chinese discussion board) that 您們 is ungrammatical. Anyway, why do you say 您 isn't a contraction?

Edited January 31, 2010 at 08:41 PM by Hofmann

[chrix]

I think the contraction hypothesis makes a lot of sense, it is said that 您 first came up during the Yuan dynasty and meant "你們".

In the TW standard it seems 您們 is possible, though 您 can also have plural meaning (which is in line with the hypothesis that it originally was a contraction).

For the BJ standard it is said that 您們 would be confined to the written language (and perceived by many as unnatural)

People's Daily link

Academic forum link

Edited February 3, 2010 at 11:56 AM by chrix

[atitarev]

I always thought that 您 shouldn't be used in plural (您 + 们) and 几位 or 各位 is to be used for polite plural "you" but some people told me I was wrong. Is there any source about it? How would you address politely your teachers (from 2 and above)?

[chrix]

Moved some posts from your thread in Other Cultures and Languages. Please have a look at the links above.

[Kenny同志]

This is what you've been looking for. 您们 is not considered a good combination.

[atitarev]

Excellent, thank you!

[Don_Horhe]

Yes, 您们 is not correct.

From Sun Chaofen's Chinese: A Linguistic Introduction

There are two second-person pronouns, the regular one nǐ and the polite form nín. However, only the regular second-person pronoun can take the plural marker -men.

A Practical Chinese Grammar for Foreigners doesn't include 您们 in their chart of pronouns on page 96 and, later on page 99, says that “ “您”表示尊敬，口语中不用复数形式。”, but the English translation makes no mention of it not being used colloquially and only in writing - "Generally, the pronoun 您, a respectful form of adress[sic], is not used in the plural."

On the other hand, 刘月华's 实用现代汉语语法 gives it as possible.

As to its origin, Chrix is right. 吕叔湘 writes in his 中国文法要略 "/们/字在宋代多写作/懑/或/门/，金元人的戏曲小说里又差不多尽作/每/。在那个时候，/我们/、/你们/、/咱们/各有合音字，写作/俺/、/您/、/喒/..."

[chrix]

It seems that 您们 can be used in some written, highly formal context, especially in Taiwan. There's quite a number of hits with 您们 from sites that end in .tw, and not all of them look formal...

[semantic nuance]

You may read this article "可以說您們嗎?"

[gato]

Does "您" exist in Cantonese or Minnanese? My guess is that 您 is peculiar to the northern dialects, perhaps even borrowed from Mongolian and Manchu. There is no 您, no honorific version of "you", in Shanghainese, for example, and many southerners aren't in the habit of saying 您 in oral conversation.

The People's Daily article linked to by semantic nuance above states that the first usage of 您 is found in the Jin Dynasty, which is a Mongolian-ruled dynasty. What do you think?

Do local people say 您 in conversation where you are?

[skylee]

Does "您" exist in Cantonese or Minnanese?

Not in Cantonese, AFAIK. It has the same pronunciation as 你 in Cantonese.

I think to show respect one can also use tone and body language (e.g. slightly bowing) besides the language itself.

[HashiriKata]

Do local people say 您 in conversation where you are?

No, where I am, they say "you" regardless whether it is singular or plural. But due to differences in speaking habits, people in Chinese speaking world are uncomfortable with using 您 for both singular and plural, and that is the reason for the relatively new 您们.

[gato]

No, where I am, they say "you" regardless whether it is singular or plural.

They should learn Chinese.

[renzhe]

The People's Daily article linked to by semantic nuance above states that the first usage of 您 is found in the Jin Dynasty, which is a Mongolian-ruled dynasty.

Sorry for butting in, but wasn't the Jin a Jurchen dynasty?

[chrix]

my "TW link" above was actually not a Taiwanese link but a traditional script version of the People Daily article (incidentally the same article linked to by Semantic nuance).

renzhe, the article says 金元時 "Jin and Yuan dynasties", but exclusively gives examples from the Yuan era.

So still need to find a Taiwanese source then. I haven't googled extensively, but still found quite a lot of websites using it...