您们好 is it correct?

[gato]

Oh, I thought the 女真 (Jurchen) were a Mongolian tribe absorbed by Genghis Khan, but it turns out that they are actually the ancestors of Manchus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurchen_people

The Nuzhen tribe (Chinese:女真族)(Jurchen) was the predecessor of the Manchu nationality. For a long period of time, it inhabited the areas north and south of the Songhua River(Chinese:松花江) and around the Heilong River.

Transition from Jurchens to Manchu

A 1682 published Italian map showing the "Kingdom of the Niuche" (i.e., Nǚzhēn) or the "Kin (Jin) Tartars", who "have occupied and are at present ruling China", north of Liaodong and Korea

Over a period of thirty years from 1586, Nurhaci, a chieftain of the Jianzhou Jurchens, united the Jurchen tribes, which was later renamed Manchu by his son Hung Taiji. He created a formidable synthesis of nomadic institutions, providing the basis of the Manchu state and later the conquest of China by the Qing dynasty.

Edited February 3, 2010 at 01:37 PM by gato

[Daan]

I knew it! I shouldn't have sent home my book describing Yuan dynasty changes in early Mandarin. Just when you need it to look up that crucial bit of information on 您 coming into existence, the book's in the hands of my much beloved mother, who, wonderful though she may be, does not read a single word of Chinese and can't help me look up the relevant bit. Oh well

For what it's worth, I'll offer as anecdotal evidence that I've seen 您們 used in a written text in northern China, but never here on Taiwan.

[Daan]

My Taiwanese teacher says 您們 is often found in Taiwanese written Mandarin, but rarely used in speech. She had never seen the character 怹 before.

[Don_Horhe]

Daan, can you share the title of your book with us? It sounds quite interesting.

[Daan]

I wish I had been smart enough to jot down the titles of the books I bought in Beijing before sending them to the Netherlands instead of taking them with me to Taipei, but I'm afraid I didn't do that, and I'll only be back in the Netherlands in June. Sorry. On the off chance you're in Wudaokou: I got it in the bookstore next to the Lush Cafe, on the shelf with all the 古代漢語 grammar books.

[gato]

Maybe it was this book?

http://product.dangdang.com/product.aspx?product_id=20659861

元代汉语语法研究

作者:李崇兴 祖生利 丁勇

There are quite a few other books available on the evolution of Chinese:

http://search.dangdang.com/search.php?key=%D4%AA%B4%FA++%BA%BA%D3%EF&catalog=&SearchFromTop=1

近代汉语研究

[Daan]

You found it! Thanks gato

[Hofmann]

Does "您" exist in Cantonese or Minnanese?

Probably not Cantonese. If 您 is a contraction of 你們, then definitely not. The Cantonese pronoun pluralizer is 等 [tei˨].

[chrix]

as it was in Literary Chinese from after the Han era. I've read some ideas that 們 might have been a loan from a non-Sinitic language up north, but I don't recall the reference right now.

[Don_Horhe]

Thanks for the titles!

[atitarev]

The Cantonese pronoun pluralizer is 等 [tei˨].

Do you mean 哋? E.g. 佢哋 - they.

[Hofmann]

Do you mean 哋?

Yes. 哋 is a new character often used when the original character 等 is pronounced [tei˨]. 等 is normally pronounced [tɐŋ˧˥].

[Flover]

we could understand the 您----exactly you are respected the man you are talking with, for example the man/woman is you superior or leader, maybe the man is also the elder or have more knowledge than you, they are respectable, so you should use the 您 to stand of the respect is out of you real heart.

[WilsonFong]

So if 您 comes from the Jurchen/Manchu language then is it possible that the Korean “님"(nim), used as a respectful way of addressing people, also shares the same root? Because that kinda sounds like "您们" (ninmen).

[Hofmann]

So if 您 comes from the Jurchen/Manchu language then is it possible that the Korean “님"(nim), used as a respectful way of addressing people, also shares the same root? Because that kinda sounds like "您们" (ninmen).

It seems unlikely to me. 님 is an honorific suffix. 你, a cognate of 爾 (Starostin says nhejʔ), is a Sino-Tibetan pronoun. Assuming the contraction hypothesis is true, the pluralizer 們 stuck to 你 turning into 您 is still a pronoun. Also if that's true then 您們 is 你們們(?), and I don't see that finding its way into a Korean honorific suffix.

[gato]

It turns out the origin of 您 is actually a hotly contested question. There's even been a war of words about it recently, with some name calling involved.

http://blog.ifeng.com/article/866325.html

“红学家”周岭先生：关于“您！”

http://www.xlmz.net/forum/redirect.php?tid=22243&goto=lastpost

红楼选秀引发“您”字大争论 周岭何东陆川舌战

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4900fe27010008fu.html

“您”，周岭、钱世明、何东、陆川全都说错了！

http://d.wanfangdata.com.cn/Periodical_csdxxb200601055.aspx

敬称"您"的来源

The Source of the Honorific "Nin"

本文试图通过相关文献和方言的实例分析以证明汉语普通话中的敬称"您"就来源于表复数的"您",而不是吕叔湘先生认为的二者是两个不相干的词.

Edited February 8, 2010 at 07:04 AM by gato

[Inkfish]

it could be understood but not a common expression

[Hofmann]

Well, I found a source that says 們 comes from 門. 王力古漢語字典 says about 門...

用在代詞或指人名詞的後面，表示多數（晚起義）。宋黃昇花庵中興詞選宋嚴次山訴衷情：“一聲水調解蘭舟，人門無此愁。”這種用法現在寫作“們”。

[chrix]

Yes that's an old debate, basically speaking some Chinese scholars just don't want to admit any possibility of foreign influence and look for any kind of nativist explanation, even if it's stretching the facts. Of course there's the other extreme also, trying to find foreign influences at any cost, so more often that not a definitive answer can't be given, even if you have enough sources from the relevant time period...