Please help: Questions for bilingual people

[aburt123]

I am currently studying Mandarin Chinese on my own, and would like to ask a few questions to anyone who is bilingual (does not necessarily have to be Chinese and English). Thanks for the help.

1. What languages are you fluent in?

2. Did you learn these languages before or after you were 18 years old?

3.How long have you been fluent in both languages?

4. Do you think that being bilingual has any cognitive benefits?

5. Have you tried learning another language as an adult? Do you think it is more difficult?

6. What do you think is the explanation behind children being able to learn new languages more easily than adults?

[renzhe]

1. What languages are you fluent in?

Croatian, English and German. Spanish and Chinese are conversational.

2. Did you learn these languages before or after you were 18 years old?

I learned English as a kid. Spanish and German as a teenager, but dropped both of them soon, and revisited them as an adult.

3.How long have you been fluent in both languages?

More than 10 years with German, basically the whole life with English and Croatian.

4. Do you think that being bilingual has any cognitive benefits?

Hard to make any strong statements about this. I feel that it is useful for many things, especially in terms of added vocabulary, but this might just be a feeling. But it will expose you to many new materials from different cultures, which might make you reconsider many things, and it's a great thing because of this.

5. Have you tried learning another language as an adult? Do you think it is more difficult?

I learned German as an adult (after a short stint with it as a teenager), and I found it easy. Probably because of the similarity of German to the languages I already knew.

I also learned Chinese, and it was very difficult. Probably because it's very different from anything I had ever learned before.

6. What do you think is the explanation behind children being able to learn new languages more easily than adults?

Personally, I don't think that they do. Kids' brains are more adaptive, but I think that much of the "kids learn languages easily" hype is just a false impression based on the following:

1) Kids talk about simple stuff using simple vocabulary. Adults discuss Nietzsche and complex social issues using very complex and extensive vocabulary.

2) Adults have all sorts of inhibitions about making mistakes, which kids don't

3) Kids learn a language 18 hours a day. They do nothing but learn things all day long. Adults work 10 hours a day, cook, go shopping, take care of the kids, and then learn for 30 minutes.

4) People tend to patiently correct kids when they talk and make mistakes. They tend to ridicule grown-ups who make mistakes, and ask for money in return.

5) Kids are better at acquiring accents than adults. This is because an adult will have 20+ years of exposure to a small set of phonemes, which is a habit that's hard to break. That's why adults often have very strong accents. It is much better if the adult has had exposure to many languages during childhood.

6) Adults also have more than 20+ years of habits relating to their mother tongue. These habits (grammatical and stylistic) are also hard to break, and often adults tend to think in these categories and "translate on the fly", leading to strange sentence constructions and grammar.

In short, I don't think that there is any physiological reason for this, and adults who grow up bilingually from a young age often avoid many of the pitfalls and find it easier to pick up new languages.

I'm convinced that if you put a grown-up and a kid in the exact same environment and let them learn a language for a year, the adult will actually be better. It just appears that the kid is better because you expect the adult to speak like a seasoned, well-read TV announcer, and you expect the kid to say things like "poopoo, doodoo" and "me like". The standard is simply different. Any linguistic student will be much better in their chosen language after 4 years of study than any 4-year old kid in their mother tongue, if you ignore potential accent problems.

And yes, this is a rather extreme position, and many people are going to disagree with me.

[chrix]

Language acquisition is not my field, but I think most people in that field would strongly disagree with you. Apparently the Critical Period Hypothesis has not been validated in its strong form, but it seems that many studies still indicate that children do acquire new languages more easily.

[renzhe]

Perhaps, and I'm obviously not an expert on this either, and my evidence anecdotal.

Still, I'd be interested to hear if any study actually compared adults to children after correcting for the following factors:

- amount of instruction

- amount of exposure to the language

- amount of stress outside of the learning time

Then compared the vocabulary (passive and active) and listening comprehension.

Much of the anectodal evidence suggesting that kids learn more quickly compares kids with full immersion and 24/7 learning to adults learning in their spare time, and this strikes me as biased. Not to mention that adults can make up for many deficiencies supposedly resulting from decreased language acquisition ability through superior concentration and studying skills.

To me, it's a cop-out. Adults can be really, really good at learning languages, and kids can really suck at it.

[SiMaKe]

Renzhe,

I tend to agree with your so-called "extreme" position. Not based on rigorous scientific studies but rather from person experience. As a youngster and young adult (14-24), I studied Spanish, French and German. As a native English speaker, these were supposed to be "easy". However, I never got past beginner. Most, if not all, of this failure was from lack of effort (and interest - much more interested in math and science). Now, during my late 50's to early 60's (with the intent to give the other side of my brain a workout) I have been studying Mandarin. Effort has made a significant difference. In particular, your point of "put a grown-up and a kid in the exact same environment" rings true to me as I have surpassed all those college-age students that I have been in class with not because of my "superior" language learning ability (which, in reality, is just the opposite) but rather because of the amount of time and effort I put in (I am retired and my fellow students have full and challenging course loads). So, I am a firm believer that effort and motivation make a significant difference in outcome (notwithstanding the accent problem).

Actually, with respect to accents, I would like to think [read "pure speculation":-) ] that even adults can mitigate, if not eliminate, this problem with the help of a speech pathologist/trainer or just more focused effort. Not to say that it would be easy, but at least possible. I suspect once an adult learns to communicate at an acceptable level (by their standards) that other more important activities take precedence (job/career, family, etc).

[chrix]

We might be talking past each other here. We're talking about children here, not young adults, so it will be hard to compare classroom situations, as children would typically learn a new language in an immersion situation.

Anyways, I don't have the time to get myself more closely acquainted with the literature on SLA, so let's leave it at that...

[HashiriKata]

5. Have you tried learning another language as an adult? - Yes.

Do you think it is more difficult? - No.

6. What do you think is the explanation behind children being able to learn new languages more easily than adults? - It's a myth based on preconceived notions which are generated and supported by superficial, inadequate evidence.

I think a proper investigation may reveal not that one category of learners is better for the task than the other, but that children and adults may excell in different areas of foreign language learning. I also agree with SiMaKe and renzhe that commitment and motivation are very important factors in language learning.

Edited February 8, 2010 at 07:25 AM by HashiriKata

[eatfastnoodle]

I wouldn't say I'm bilingual because I don't think my English is good enough to be considered truly fluent (my definition of fluency is that you don't have to have perfect accent, but you need to master the language to the point that everything else beside accent is or very close to naive level.). However, I do feel that being relatively comfortable with another language do have impact on my mind and how I look at things. Sometimes, I can distinctly feel that when thinking in English I follow certain patterns while under Chinese mode, my mind behaves in some other ways. It's as if I had two minds.

[aburt123]

Thanks a lot guys, this has been very helpful.

[valikor]

Very interesting.

In a way, it is hard to compare the two... you couldn't allow kids and adults to learn in "identical environments" since a kid couldn't sit down and read a book for an hour (for example...)

Renze is right that kids can "suck at it". I have taught very young children who have had English class 5 times a week for 2-3 years and still can't answer "what's your name?" It's quite obvious to me that some kids are just too young and not ready to learn.

In my experience (limited, but I still have some), grammar is also very difficult for them. Even after a week of trying to teach them for 30 minutes a day, they might still not understand that you put an "s" on words that are plural... or when to say "are" instead of "is". These rules are so simple that I believe even the least talented adults would learn them very quickly.

There have been times in learning Chinese where--upon receiving a clear and concise explanation about some grammar rule--I have immediately understood and been able to apply it in conversation, and remember it months later. I don't consider myself to be talented in languages, but have the ability to think logically.

Renzhe's the argument about the double-standard is also true.. I have a student in China who is 4-5 years old. She has had English class in her Kindergarten for 2-3 years, 5 days a week. She is better than all of the other students. I once asked her "Why are you late?" and she responded "At home I build a snowman, so I'm late." For a 4-5 year old Chinese girl, this displays an impressive amount of listening comprehension and verbal expression. (Both of her parents speak English, and talk to her regularly using English. Probably every day)

If she were an adult, though, who had been taking some classes for a few years, and received daily conversation practice, nobody would be impressed. Personally, I haven't studied Chinese for very long （most of what I know has come from 6 months of intensive self-study, living in China). If someone asked me 你为什么迟到了？ I could easily say 在我的家，我盖了一个雪人。我就迟到了。 (I don't know if I made any grammatical mistakes there, but I don't think anyone would be too impressed with my saying this sentence)

I do believe she will grow up to speak English very fluently, possibly with no accent (this might be an advantage of starting young... I don't know much about accent training)... But seeing as how her parents probably teach her every day, and have done so for years,, I don't conclude that she is uniquely enabled to learn the language because she got such an early start

It's probably another one of those pesky questions with no clear answer.. ie, maybe for some people, starting early would be very very beneficial... but others wouldn't do any better.

[Shi Tong]

1. What languages are you fluent in?

I'm a fluent speaker and listener of Mandarin and English, but I cant really write Mandarin properly yet, though I can read a bit.

2. Did you learn these languages before or after you were 18 years old?

English, obviously yes, Mandarin started at about 22.

3.How long have you been fluent in both languages?

What is fluent? I dont even think I'm fluent in everything English yet either! Fluency is a state of flux and can never truly be acheived on every level IMO.

4. Do you think that being bilingual has any cognitive benefits?

Dont know.. maybe.

5. Have you tried learning another language as an adult? Do you think it is more difficult?

Here's the interesting one.

I took a French GCSE when I was 16, and I was pretty average, I got a B, but GCSE French is easy. My best "point" was my accent.

Personally I think it depends on who you are and what your natural abilities are. I dont have the capacity for complex grammar and I tend to have a logic based mind. I also have almost perfect pitch, and I have trouble hearing very soft sounds, so..

1) Being able to hear hard noises helps in Mandarin. (doesn't in French)

2) Being able to differentiate tone helps in Mandarin. (doesn't in French)

3) Having a logical based system helps in Mandarin. (There are aspects of French language which make absoutely no logical sense to me, like grammar and masculine/ feminine stuff).

So I was in a good position to understand Mandarin better than French from the start. Strangely, I cant learn Taiwanese.. why? Mainly because it has very soft sounds and extremely subtle pitch changes which my ear cant detect.

So consider YOUR personal abilities.

6. What do you think is the explanation behind children being able to learn new languages more easily than adults?

They're forced to learn it. I think some adults can be too, but at some point I think things like being able to hear or differenciate tones in Mandarin just dissapears. I think the reason for this is because as a child, you just reproduce without getting your mind in the way. As an adult, I think a lot of people find it hard to hear without prejudice. That's my opinion anyway

[trisha2766]

Some of the answers to your last 3 questions can be found in this book: Raising a Bilingual Child by Barbara Zurer Pearson. The author is a linguist who summarizes a lot of the research on first and second language acquisition in kids.

[knadolny]

1. What languages are you fluent in?

English and Mandarin

2. Did you learn these languages before or after you were 18 years old?

Native English and Mandarin started in college so that would be 19.

3.How long have you been fluent in both languages?

Mandarin for 6 years.

4. Do you think that being bilingual has any cognitive benefits?

Yeah. I think learning languages has helped with keeping my mind flexible and sharp which helps me learn other things. Or maybe that's just an excuse for me to keep learning languages.

5. Have you tried learning another language as an adult? Do you think it is more difficult?

I am learning Japanese now and it's much harder than learning Chinese. Why? Because I am no longer a student who can spend hours studying each day. I have a job that keeps me busy.

6. What do you think is the explanation behind children being able to learn new languages more easily than adults?

I think other people have touched on it. I like what Renzhe says in his "extreme position".

I think if you act like a kid then you'll learn languages faster. Don't be afraid to make mistakes, listen and mimic other people, and don't think about making a fool out of yourself. I think the Japanese are so bad at English because they don't want to the risk of sounding dumb. They can read and write beautifully, but speaking is nowhere close. One friend said she wanted to be speak perfectly before she speaking at all. I'm afraid learning languages is humbling experience and you're going to feel and sound like a kid while learning it.

The same is true when I have a few drinks. I am uninhibited and speak much better Japanese than usual.

[doraemon]

1. What languages are you fluent in?

English, Mandarin

2. Did you learn these languages before or after you were 18 years old?

Both before. I started learning Chinese when I was a child although never properly until I was 12. English native.

3.How long have you been fluent in both languages?

If you mean being able to write, listen, speak and read with no problem at all, then I'd say about 4 years. If it's just conversation, then probably 7 or 8.

QUOTE]4. Do you think that being bilingual has any cognitive benefits?[

It's obviously good to know as many as you can, but knowing more than one language makes your brain more flexible and makes it easier to learn other languages.

5. Have you tried learning another language as an adult? Do you think it is more difficult?

I'm not an adult yet, but I'm guessing it would be a lot harder for most adults to pick up another language than children.

6. What do you think is the explanation behind children being able to learn new languages more easily than adults?

I'm not sure why, but learning a language when you're a child really helps you with pronunciation. The older you get, the harder it for you to pronounce other languages since your tongue's not as soft as before.