Do not ever ignore tones!

[abcdefg]

Specifically, I wonder to what extent time and exposure (input) are the main factors in foreigners getting good at tones.

I realize that it's something of an individual matter, but I think I could be passively exposed to perfect pronunciation for a hundred years without it really helping me speak much better. My progress seems to depend more on output than it does on input. I have to stumble through a million mistakes and be frustratingly misunderstood or be repeatedly corrected for the right tones to really "stick" and become part of my habit structure.

[MaLaTang]

a lot of ppl will disagree, but really, in spoken putongua, there are only 3 tones....the second and third tone are pretty much identical.

[creamyhorror]

a lot of ppl will disagree, but really, in spoken putongua, there are only 3 tones....the second and third tone are pretty much identical.

On what basis do you say this? Are you talking about Standard Putonghua? The 2nd and 3rd tones are certainly not identical in that, especially not on intermediate words. I can assure you native speakers distinguish the pronunciations of the two in both speaking and listening.

On intermediate words, the 2nd tone is a rising tone and the 3rd tone is a low tone. That's a clear difference.

[MaLaTang]

honestly...if someone pronounced shui4guo4 as shui4guo3, would anyone misunderstand? same thing if mei4guo3 was pronounced as mei4guo4. the 3rd tone also becomes the 2nd when there are two 3rd tones. if we are taking a beginners or intermediate class, where the speaker is pronouncing every tone slowly, then yes, there is a very clear difference. but really, that dragged, rising and lowering 3rd tone isn't discernible when ppl are talking fast. in a regular conversation, some native speakers DO pronounce the 3rd tone slowly and clearly, but many do not, and when they dont, there is no indication that they are a non-native speaker.

[imron]

honestly...if someone pronounced shui4guo4 as shui4guo3, would anyone misunderstand?

If I left all the vowels out of sentence would anyone misunderstand? Mst f th tm ppl wld ndrstnd bt why mk t dffclt fr thm?

[MaLaTang]

ok, now try to PRONOUNCE what you just wrote, and youll sound like a clown. that argument is pihua.

[imron]

And you think you won't sound like a clown if you ignore certain tones?

The number of times I have heard Chinese people making fun of a toneless (or incorrectly toned) foreign accent is too many to count.

[creamyhorror]

honestly...if someone pronounced shui4guo4 as shui4guo3, would anyone misunderstand? same thing if mei4guo3 was pronounced as mei4guo4.

That would sound pretty weird, and I would take a moment to wonder what that person was saying. mei4 guo4 would just make no sense.

If you made that sort of mispronunciation, most people would write you off as someone with no grasp of tones (aka sounding "like a clown").

but really, that dragged, rising and lowering 3rd tone isn't discernible when ppl are talking fast.

The lowering and rising 3rd tone is not used on intermediate words. The 3rd tone is a simple low tone on such words. That's how I was taught it. It sounds clearly different from the 2nd tone.

I think you should reserve your judgments on how many tones there effectively are in Chinese until you've gained a few more years of experience in Chinese and really learned to distinguish between tones. Right now it sounds like you're asserting things based on your own hearing and evaluation, but that is clearly at odds with the rest of us. (Or are you an advanced or native speaker?)

[xiaocai]

@MaLaTang

Care to have a read of what Wikipedia says?

[imron]

The number of times I have heard Chinese people making fun of a toneless (or incorrectly toned) foreign accent is too many to count.

See for example

, the joke from 5.00 onwards.

[WestTexas]

I don't see how any serious student of the language can ignore tones... honestly the idea that there's actually people who do this never even crossed my mind. I think Imron's example spelling with no vowels is fitting - yeah they can figure it out, but it's difficult and that's just not how the language is. Also, tones DO make a difference sometimes. For example, a few weeks ago I was eating dumplings and I asked for the garlic, but pronounced it as suan1 instead of suan4, and they didn't know what I meant. Another example, think about the Chinese person with the worst accent in English you have ever heard but you could still just barely understand them. Was it fun to talk to this person? How many hour-plus conversations did you have with this person? That's how you sound to Chinese people if you don't have good tones. If your goal in Chinese is to order food and tell the taxi where to go, by all means skip tones (or learn them anyways, so you don't sound like an idiot), but the idea of someone trying to achieve more than a beginner level in the language without learning tones strikes me as ridiculous.

[roddy]

honestly...if someone pronounced shui4guo4 as shui4guo3, would anyone misunderstand?

They might figure it out, they might ask you to repeat yourself, they may repeat it back to you correctly for confirmation - regardless you're increasing the transaction cost for your interlocutor.

ok, now try to PRONOUNCE what you just wrote, and youll sound like a clown. that argument is pihua.

Erm, I think that's exactly his point. Run around talking without tones, and you'll get stuck as one of those 'Good Chinese . . . for a foreigner' folk. Fine if that's your aim, but there are higher targets.

[MaLaTang]

well, i NEVER said it was ok to ignore tones. in fact, tones are the basis for communicating in mandarin. If someone is pronouncing ping2guo3 as ping4guo1, it obviously will sound ridiculous. also, earlier in post #44, i made a mistake in my example by saying ' would it make a difference if anyone... shui4guo4 as shui4guo3 ' . i meant shui3guo3 pronounced as shui3guo2. but even so, im ready to dissolve this argument. yes, i probably erred.

[Hofmann]

Actually, some people do merge tone 2 to 3 (except before 3). Have you heard it? It sounds irksome.