sh,x and ch,q voiced differences

[buzhongren]

I have trouble telling the difference between sh and x in words like xiangshang and ch and q in words like changqing. To my Engish ear they sound the same. The only way I know there is a difference I see the pictures of tongue,lip,palette with arcane language like retroflex and fricative. In practice would I be misunderstood or just get the exasperated expression. I use to think tones were everything but I realize there are other pinyin sounds that are just as important but in this case how much.

xiele,

Jim

[chrix]

Can you produce the different sounds correctly? That would be a good first step,as production can help perception. Other than that, lots of practice....

[Chinadoog]

What listening material are you using? Something like pimsleur/chinese pod? Or are you living in China?

You should find a Chinese tutor or a Chinese friend who can speak clear putonghua and have them say chu/qu, xiang/shang, jiang/zhang etc. to you slowly and clearly. Repeat the sounds back to them until you get it right.

[msittig]

find a Chinese tutor or a Chinese friend who can speak clear putonghua

Better yet, get somebody trained in linguistics and in Chinese to tell you the position of the different parts of your mouth when you produce those sounds. When you practice, exaggerate. That's what really worked for me.

(I won't try to repeat the explanation here to avoid making a fool of myself, but I believe it has to do mostly with the position of the tongue.)

(("arcane language like retroflex and fricative" always bothers me too.))

(((Or move to Taiwan where there is no difference! Kidding.)))

[renzhe]

Yes, what materials are you learning from? Where do you get your pronunciation from?

msittig is kidding, but in Taiwan, the two sounds are much closer than they are on the Mainland. Perhaps that's why you're finding it hard to hear the difference?

[Shi Tong]

I agree- Taiwanese pronunciation, if away from the standard, or spoken as daiwan goyu (badly spoken Mandarin by people's whose 1st language is Taiwanese), you'll find it hard to hear the difference, because there is none.

I remember my mother in law asking me: "ni yao bu yao qu pa2 san1", I frowned for a long time until I realised that she meant "shan", not "san", therefore, would I like to go walking in the mountains.

Thing you really need to look for is the "eee" sound when you're saying the words x and q, where it's missing in the zh ch sounds.

Good luck! *(I still dont know some of the differences because I know the words by the way they've been told to me, and sometimes this is from my mum in law who cant always pronounce things properly.. I have to make sure by making her spell them.. and she still doesn't know how!! )*

[buzhongren]

renzhe

I worked with a private Chinese tutor from Taiwan last summer on tones and finals. As I review the audio materials I now realize the initial constant differences between sh,x ch,q which we didnt concentrate on. Ill keep it in mind to find a mainland tutor the next time.

msittig

The college textbooks on pinyin sounds show the side view of the head with tongue,lip,palette to reproduce the sounds along with the vocalization terms like labial,alveolar,etc. So for example sh is retroflex,voiceless fricative and x is palatal,voiceless fricative. This approach is absolutely meaningless to me except to say I know the two sounds are different enough. Its too bad I cant audit a college chinese course on this approach. You have to be enrolled as undergrad or grad student. I do have an audio book on pinyin sounds which has animation and I think actual Xrays of necessary alignments to produce the sounds. Ill look into that to see if it helps.

chrix,chinadoog

I use audio materials from Internet, books, and some instruction. I know enough I think I could learn the difference on my own. My goal isnt perfect pinyin sound but to make myself understood. From everybody I hear the difference is important.

xiele,

Jim

[Don_Horhe]

http://www.sinosplice.com/learn-chinese/pronunciation-of-mandarin-chinese

I hope this helps. Page 5 in particular.

Edited February 15, 2010 at 03:17 PM by Don_Horhe
I meant page 5.

[Shi Tong]

buzongren,

I wouldn't think it's the Taiwanese tutor's fault that they didn't concentrate on the zh, ch, sh, j, q, x sound differences, especially if you can listen back to your recorded material and tell the difference.

The only thing I would say is that I've never been taught that when you're pronouncing words like zhang and jiang, there is a difference, and I think a few people do need guidance on this point- as mentioned by another poster before- exaggeration helps. Pronounce sh as a strong SH and xi as a strong XI, then try pronouncing words which end in different endings afterwards to see if you're following the sounds through to the middle of the words (where the difference lies).

I remember realising that bu "yung" was spelled with an ㄩ instead of anㄧ, (ㄩㄥ4, not ㄧㄥ4), and having to change my tongue shape to make it sound better.. I remember now, but it's one of those things you start to realise after a while when you've learned a lot!!

[Hofmann]

buzhongren,

The sounds that are written in Pinyin as zh, ch, and sh are produced with one's tongue bent upwards so that the tip is about midway between one's teeth and one's soft palate. This image is wrong; the tip should not bend back. The sounds that are written as j, q and x are produced with the middle of one's tongue raised toward your hard palate so that air is forced through a small opening between them.

[buzhongren]

Shi.Tong: wouldn't think it's the Taiwanese tutor's fault that they didn't concentrate on the zh, ch, sh, j, q, x sound differences, especially if you can listen back to your recorded material and tell the difference.

I really couldnt tell the difference then. I realize now initial consonants are just as important as anything else. From what I know there is little overlap between sh+final and x+final as example. Where it does that is what I should learn. I always took the consonants as a given except for Z and ordering Tsing Tao beer and saying goodbye. I watched Dialogue on CCTV last week where a world famous Chinese Linguist was interviewed. The Moderator said Chinese studying in England learn a different Engish than US. He said students now find Australia and India cheaper to learn. He wondered if there was any downside. The Linguist said it depends on who is speaking. I thought too myself that is the best you could come up with. I know when I see Irish movies there had better be English subtitles.

xiele,

Jim

[renzhe]

I wouldn't recommend you to avoid Taiwanese tutors in general. It's quite likely that a tutor from another place would have another issue you'd have to deal with.

But I'd try to get the difference between initials down as soon as possible. This is especially important in the early stages of learning Chinese. Once you understand that they are different, you are generally quite tolerant to variations and merges.

The bottom line, zh, j and z all sound different when pronounced correctly. If you can't hear the difference at all, then they are not being pronounced correctly.

[Shi Tong]

heh

I agree with renzhe here.. these sounds are fundamentally different and you should be able to tell the difference when being taught.

Maybe your old tutor was mispronouncing their words, which could have given you a bad habit.

Put it this way- saying "Shan" and (I'm aware that this sound doesn't exist, but...) "Xian" (I'm not talking about xian1 as in "first", but a combination of the sounds pushed together xi and an), Shan should still sound different- Shan would not have an "e" sound in the middle, whereas Xian would go "shian", Shan would sound just like "shan".

A trip up that a lot of English speaks have is that if you read "shan" off the page, we usually pronounce it with a little phonetic "e" in the middle. You need to cut that out!!

[Altair]

English has one set of consonants (sh, zh, j, and ch) that are pronounced at a place in the mouth that is between where the dental/alveolar consonants (t, d, n, s) are pronounced and where the velar consonants (k, g, ng) are pronounced. These consonants in the middle set are generally called "palatal" or "postalveolar" because they are pronounced against the palate behind the root of the upper teeth (dental alveoli). Chinese has two sets of consonants in approximately this same space. Once set is called "palatal," because those consonants are pronounced against the soft palate. The other set is called "retroflex," because the tongue is bent back a little toward the roof of the mouth.

I think the tendency of an English speaker is to hear any consonant that is not dental/alveolar or velar, as an undifferentiated something in the middle. We hear a palatal sound, without differentiating between whether the contact is with the middle of the tongue against the soft palate behind the tooth ridge or whether the contact is with the broad tip of the tongue behind the tooth ridge in the hard palate.

It may help to know that in both English and Chinese, these "palatal or post-alveolar consonants" may have a partial origin in dental or velar sounds that were originally followed by a vocalic glide. This glide then affected the pronunciation of both the preceding consonant and the following vowel or diphthong, smashing three distinct sounds into a modified two or three. For instance, the "S" sounds in the American pronunciations of "passion," "sure," and "issue" were all originally pronounced the same as the "S" in "set." In some versions of English this pronunciation can still be used in some words, such as "issue," as long as the following Y-glide is retained.

In English, these glides are usually called "semi-vowels," but in some circumstances and in some other languages in might be better to call them "semi-consonants." In any case, these sequences of consonant-glide-and-vowel, can be interpreted by native speakers in different ways. The interpretation can also vary from language to language. They can be A + B + C; modified A + B + modified C; modified A + unmodified C; etc.

In Chinese, we usually talk about different initials and different finals. This is modified A + modified C; however, the glide or evidence of the glide (i.e., B) is always there. In Pinyin and to a lesser degree in Zhuyin Fuhao, the spelling confuses things, treating different combinations of consonant-glide-and-vowel differently, for various reasons of writing economy, reading clarity, segment theory, historical spellings, and perceived pronunciation.

In Chinese, you can think of three different glides, which, using Pinyin spelling conventions, would be: "i/y/ü," "u/w," and "h/r." However, an initial "y" before "i" or "w" before "u" may simply be an empty place holder and not represent any additional audible glide.

As a learner, you can arbitrarily take the palatal series as primary. You can recognize the palatal consonants by noting that they represent "oddball" consonants that have widely varying pronunciations from language to language, i.e. "q," "j," "x," and "y." The core sound that all palatal consonants share in Chinese is the "y" in English "yet." When trying to differentiate these consonants, always listen for this glide or the fusing of this glide with /u/ to make /ü/. In this case, the glide is indicated in spelling by an "i" and the fusion by a plain "u."

You can recognize the retroflex stop consonants since they are written with a digraph that includes an "h" (ch, zh, and sh). The core sound they all share is close to what is represented by Pinyin "r" or "ri." To help distinguish these sounds, try listening for sounds that seem almost fused with "r." Some of these sounds are also followed by the "u/w" glide, which is usually spelled with a "u," e.g., "zhui" or "shui/shei." If you hear a sound that could be expanded into a "u/w" without changing the meaning or the core sound, you know that it is one of the retroflex consonants. A glide is usually not separately audible, but it should sound as if one could easily be inserted without changing much.