How to pronounce 一不做 (yi1 bu4 zuo4) considering tone sandhi

[westmeadboy]

一不做 (yi1 bu4 zuo4)

According to tone sandhi rules yi1 becomes yi2 and bu4 becomes bu2 which would give the pronounciation "yi2 bu2 zuo4".

However, applying the rule to bu4 first we get:

"yi4 bu2 zuo4"

Which one is correct? Or maybe there are extra complications concerning word boundaries etc?

[HashiriKata]

The correct one should be "yi4 bu2 zuo4"

[westmeadboy]

Thanks!

So is it generally correct to apply the "bu4" rule before the "yi1" rule?

I mean, once you apply the "bu4" rule, then "yi1" is no longer followed by a 4th tone...

[xiaocai]

I would pronounce as yi1bu2zuo4, er4bu4xiu1.

[chrix]

I think in some chengyu, yi1 is not subject to the sandhi rule. It confuses me sometimes though, I need to sit down with a native speaker and go over a list of chengyu with yi. Of course there are some obvious ones where yi1 is used like in your run-of-the-mill classifier phrase, then it should be subject to sandhi rules no matter what.

[HashiriKata]

So is it generally correct to apply the "bu4" rule before the "yi1" rule?

I mean, once you apply the "bu4" rule, then "yi1" is no longer followed by a 4th tone...

That is correct. It's always the sound that is to follow that affects what goes before it, just like "zuo4" affects the preceding "bu4".

[westmeadboy]

OK, so you just need to work back from the end of the phrase.

[HashiriKata]

That's right. We anticipate what is to come and modify our behaviour accordingly

[chrix]

There's no logical reason for the order the rules should be applied, it could go either way and it would be specific to the language (I'm actually not sure which way Mandarin would go, because I don't think the sandhi rules apply for 一 in 一不做).

The problem is dictionaries don't mention this because the convention is to "ignore" the sandhi rules in dictionaries, and all the native speakers I've talked to about this so far say it's first tone... Though one said they'd heard people pronounce it in the second tone...

[HashiriKata]

There's no logical reason for the order the rules should be applied, it could go either way and it would be specific to the language

This is surely true! (to the uninitiated! ;) )

[chrix]

well, share your wisdom with us, and don't forget to mention your sources...

EDIT: actually you wouldn't even need to give us sources, some examples which unequivocally show the precedence of rules in Mandarin would suffice. 一不做 is not it, as there are too many native speakers who do not apply sandhi rules for 一...

Edited March 7, 2010 at 05:05 PM by chrix

[SiMaKe]

The phrase "too many native speakers who ..." (say this or say that) raises an interesting question (to me at least :-)). How does this demographic breakdown? E.g., is it dialect driven, educated/less educated, urban/rural, etc? Or, more generally, when discussing "rules" (or better yet "standard usage"?), which group of speakers do the "rule makers" rely on when formulating such rules? (Putting aside the debates arising because not all members of any group would defer to the "rules" anyway:-).) Or is this discussion just listing the different possibilities and not concluding what is "standard"?

As for whether the rules apply "backwards" or "forwards", just from a logic standpoint, it seems that, since tone sandhi depends on the "tone following", HashiriKata's "apply in reverse" fits best in this situation.

Having made this statement, the related response "it could go either way and it would be specific to the language" then leads to the question of an example. Are there languages where the sandhi rules apply to "what follows" and then apply a different (sort of second layer) rule when more than one pair is involved? I don't see anything logically inconsistent with this (especially since such languages presumably exist), but then the sandhi rule would add a further dependency (which is ok).

Getting back to the original issue regarding 一不做, does the tone of yi possibly depend (excluding chengyu rules) on whether or not there is a pause between yi and bu?