tooironic Posted March 9, 2010 at 12:21 AM Report Posted March 9, 2010 at 12:21 AM I've seen this phrase translated as: 如蒙需要,即可提供推荐信。 rú méng xūyào, jíkě tígōng tuījiànxìn Could someone please give me a breakdown of the words in this sentence and their parts of speech? I don't quite understand how 如, 蒙 and 即可 work in this sentence. Cheers. Quote
waiguoren Posted March 9, 2010 at 12:36 AM Report Posted March 9, 2010 at 12:36 AM I have also struggled with 如蒙--a quick Google search gives a very useful result: 如蒙——用于回复的敬语,相当于如果能承蒙您(同意) (see http://bbs.zdic.net/redirect.php?tid=114687&goto=lastpost) As for "即可", I believe you might think of it as "就可以". Quote
tooironic Posted March 9, 2010 at 12:50 AM Author Report Posted March 9, 2010 at 12:50 AM Yes, that makes sense. Similar to 均可 as a formal version of 都可以 I guess. I've created entries for both on Wiktionary. (即可 and 均可.) Thanks! Quote
chenxiyin212 Posted March 9, 2010 at 01:32 AM Report Posted March 9, 2010 at 01:32 AM Some words relate to culture.the "如蒙" is a Kwok-him words(谦词), words of Civilities.you can traslate as "如果你";"既可" is "就可以" or "这样就好可以". like 昨日蒙教,蒙 is a word of Civilities,it means 昨日谢谢你的教导 or 昨日承蒙你的赐教 Quote
HeWei2 Posted March 9, 2010 at 12:19 PM Report Posted March 9, 2010 at 12:19 PM "蒙" can also be used as a relatively passive marker (as per generic “被"). That is, "如蒙需要" could be translated as "if it is required". Quote
tooironic Posted March 9, 2010 at 10:03 PM Author Report Posted March 9, 2010 at 10:03 PM It's weird because Wenlin doesn't mention anything about 蒙 having a kind of 被-like usage... but it certainly makes sense in this sentence to think of it thus. Quote
chrix Posted March 9, 2010 at 10:19 PM Report Posted March 9, 2010 at 10:19 PM I wouldn't call it a "passive marker", which would imply a certain degree of grammaticalisation, but in the meaning of "受到" it can be used both in a positive and a negative way, my dictionary for instance has 蒙冤 and 蒙教, and also has an example sentence: 蒙熱情招待,十分感激. Surely Wenlin would have that meaning, right? Quote
HeWei2 Posted March 9, 2010 at 10:37 PM Report Posted March 9, 2010 at 10:37 PM Here's the abstract for an article describing the usage of 蒙, which doesn't carry the same negative connotations as 被: http://d.wanfangdata.com.cn/Periodical_yykx200506001.aspx From what I remember of university lectures, around the time that Chinese (following the lead of Japanese) was being twisted and bent to facilitate the translation of Western academic texts, 蒙 was considered a possible marker for passive sentences. Since then, usage has more or less settled down to what is used now. Quote
chrix Posted March 9, 2010 at 10:41 PM Report Posted March 9, 2010 at 10:41 PM Now that's an article I would like to read in its entirety Well, it looks like we were just talking about different aspects of the same thing: the potentiality of 蒙 to develop into a passive marker, and the present state of it being not one. On that same note, I think there's a number of constructions used as translational equivalents for passives in English, also 受到 and a number... Quote
tooironic Posted March 9, 2010 at 10:44 PM Author Report Posted March 9, 2010 at 10:44 PM Hmmm, Wenlin does mention a compound that means "to receive" - 蒙受 méngshòu. I suppose that's the one. It's weird, because I've never had much of an issue with Mandarin grammar, but this sentence totally stumped me. I guess it must be a classical Chinese construction, though I may be wrong. Quote
chrix Posted March 9, 2010 at 11:44 PM Report Posted March 9, 2010 at 11:44 PM Yes, it means 蒙受 at least since the Han era (and this is also why a good dictionary should have this meaning, so I'm surprised Wenlin doesn't). Quote
tooironic Posted March 10, 2010 at 04:27 AM Author Report Posted March 10, 2010 at 04:27 AM It does list it. Quote
chrix Posted March 10, 2010 at 12:27 PM Report Posted March 10, 2010 at 12:27 PM I mean in the list of meanings for 蒙, not in the list of character combinations... Quote
tooironic Posted March 10, 2010 at 10:44 PM Author Report Posted March 10, 2010 at 10:44 PM It does. ①receive méngshòu Quote
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