Arguably the LARGEST Chinese - English Dictionary Online

[tooironic]

Yes, exactly. The same is the case with "queer" or "同志". If you used either of these in the old-fashioned way you'd be bound to get very interesting reactions.

[chrix]

Now let me tell you about this time where a Japanese friend of mine came to visit me in Taiwan, and had to show his student ID at the youth hostel. He said the clerk smirked when seeing it, and I presume this is because he was studying at the renowned private Christian university in Kyoto, called Dōshisha, or 同志社...

[taylor04]

Wow! That's just funny....

[lollypop90210]

Wow !

I don't think Microsoft is quite in this thing ...

Definitely not their forte !

Lollypop90210

[buzhongren]

tooironic: You still haven't provided any evidence that words like these are considered "hate" words;

Dictionaries cant teach you slang. Queer and penis are there by other definitions. If a dictionary assigns a slang definition to either that meaning could change tomorrow and be assigned to another term. Its the nature of language. The primary definitions of the word wont change. I already pointed out certain slang words that dont appear on the suggested Google search terms. I think there is a general concensus that slang terms for racism and sexual orientation are classified as 'hate' terms and now have a legal footing. The US recently passed 'hate' crime legistation pertaining to the two areas I just mentioned. If you say it it isnt considered free speech anymore. That is waiting to be challenged in courts. I think it will be upheld because you cant scream fire in a theater and Britain has long held these terms to be slanderous.

xiele,

Jim

[tooironic]

Dictionaries cant teach you slang.

Why not? If a reader comes across a word used in an unusual way s/he will look it up and expect to find a definition that makes sense to them.

If a dictionary assigns a slang definition to either that meaning could change tomorrow and be assigned to another term.

Dictionaries have quite strict criteria about definitions and will only add new senses if they can be demonstrated as having widespread usage. Words are constantly evolving, and if anything, dictionaries are here to archive that evolution. To put it simply, they should cover a widest range of possible meaning so long as widespread usage can be demonstrated (as is indeed the case with "queer", et al).

I already pointed out certain slang words that dont appear on the suggested Google search terms.

Google has never been an authoritative source for linguistic information.

I think there is a general concensus that slang terms for racism and sexual orientation are classified as 'hate' terms and now have a legal footing.

Rubbish. "Queer" has evolved way beyond the base, pejorative sense. See Queer studies on Wikipedia for more information.

The US recently passed 'hate' crime legistation pertaining to the two areas I just mentioned.

Dictionaries are not law encylopedias - their purpose is to record how words are and have been used. This is why open source dictionaries like Wiktionary can often be way ahead of print dictionaries that take a long time to update their definitions.

[buzhongren]

tooironic: last post

I trust my various print dictionaries if they list comrade tongzhi at all. Dictionaries gives us the most common use of a word. The words suggested so far I wouldnt use in speech or writing. All slang is regional. Just because rappers can use the N word as a salutation for each other doesnt mean I can. Oppressed communities take hate speech in the form of racism and sexual orientation and subvert it to remove the negative connotation. I dont think Google is censoring certain words. I do think they account for a certain use of a word in their Google search which they tout so much. If I see something represented as authoritative on the Internet I use other non Internet sources for verification. In a sense the Internet isnt up to date. It does take on the calculus of instantaneous information or a slice of anything we could consider at any point in time. The word Queer undermines your argument it would be used as an everyday slang word for people of a certain sexual orientation. In my one print dictionary it is defined as slang for the sexual orientation group like online MDBG. Not much to go on. In polite company you might mention the word in lieu of others. A dictionary is the wrong place to learn slang. I think dictionaries express the erudition of a language. I dont recognize certain kinds of slang as a necessity. I also consider encyclopedias different than dictionaries.

xiele,

Jim

Edited March 14, 2010 at 03:32 PM by buzhongren

[tooironic]

Dictionaries gives us the most common use of a word.

Says who? If dictionaries only gave us the most common use of a word no one would consult them. They're supposed to give us the broadest range of meanings - that's their job!

Oppressed communities take hate speech in the form of racism and sexual orientation and subvert it to remove the negative connotation.

You make it sound like these communities are on the fringe. The word "queer" in the LGBTI sense has been in use in the mainstream for many years. It's not just some silly minority slang. Same with 同志.

I think dictionaries express the erudition of a language.

If lexicographers shared that view the enormous dictionaries we use now would never have existed.

[jbradfor]

@buzhongren

Queer in most English print dictionaries is defined 1st adjective, 2nd verb which can be conjugated. You would have to look for an unabridged dictionary that maybe defines it as 3rd noun.

Look at definition 2d. I admit you did say "print", but this is hardly unabridged.

Later edit: shoot, I just saw tooironic's post... And they disabled deleting messages once posted.... I shouldn't post at 11:00 PM, I can't even read anymore...

[imron]

...has been in use in the mainstream for many years... Same with 同志.

I disagree with this. In all my time in China, I never heard this word once used to mean homosexual except by foreigners saying, teehee did you know comrade means homosexual. So while this meaning might be mainstream in Taiwan and HK, and while it might be used extensively in the LGBTI communities, it's not mainstream in mainland China so I wouldn't expect a mainland-based dictionary to include it. Even then, I also tend to agree that a dictionary is not necessarily the best place for slang, and a thesaurus better serves that sort of purpose.

Take for example another word 'package', which, like 小弟弟, can be used as slang for certain parts of the male anatomy. None of those dictionaries you listed above had the slang meaning in their main definition of the word, and I wouldn't expect them to. That's the sort of detail I'd expect to find in a thesaurus instead.

[tooironic]

But, again, this word has demonstrated widespread usage - regardless of your own experiences. Language is unpredictable. It is completely plausible that one person's common slang is another's every day word. For people both in and out of the Chinese LGTBI communities this is certainly the case. 同志 has such a heavy connotation of queer now that it has almost overshadowed the original meaning of comrade. I'd think you'd agree with me when I say to not include this sense in dictionaries would seem to be a decision based on political pressure more than anything else. We've seen the same thing happen with words like 鸡 and 鸭. As for these Chinese thesauri you speak of, I have yet to see any, but I'd love to check them out if you can recommend some titles.

EDIT: Package is defined as the male genitalia on Wiktionary.

[gato]

The use of 同志 to refer to gays started with a gay activist in Hong Kong. The article below says that few mainland Chinese media use 同志 to refer to gays.

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/21562877.html?si=5&wtp=wk

“同志”一词的起源

同就是能谈到一块意见相同,志,由士和心组成.士的意思就是为知己而死,心就是幕红颜而生!

1989年，香港人林奕华将自己筹划的首届同性恋电影节命名为《香港同志电影节》，这可能是这层意义的开端。（最晚是）从此开始，在中国大陆之外的中文地区，如台湾、香港、新加坡、马来西亚等，“同志”一词逐渐演变成对同性恋者的另一个称呼。用的时候并不是如“某某同志”这样作称谓用，而是“某某是一个同志”、“某某参加了一个同志团体”这样。这种用法起先在同性恋群体中使用，后来影响逐渐扩大，上述地区的社会各界都采纳了这个用法，例如台北市政府民政局就在《认识同志手册2001年版》中写道：“市长爱同志”。

林奕华本人曾表示：自己希望用来取代同性恋的同志一词，是由孙中山名言“革命尚未成功，同志仍须努力”联想而来。林一方希望指出仍然需要继续努力，另一方面则希望将讨论的焦点从性取向转移到性别议题。此后许多关注各种不同性别议题的人士都希望能用同志一词联结、包含、代表更多人，目前同志一词不仅限于同性恋者，已扩大到国际上通称的LGBT四大族群，也就是男同性恋者（Gay）、女同性恋者（Lesbian）、双性恋者（Bisexual）与跨性别者（Transgender），例如2004年台湾出版的小说彩虹阴阳蝶，副标题就是“跨性别同志的心路历程”。并且在这层意义之后出现如“直同志”这个词汇。

近年进入大陆后，由于绝大多数年轻人已经不再使用“同志”这个词汇，使得这层含义反而后来居上。尽管这一层新的含义在大陆地区也被越来越多的人所知晓并使用，不过中华人民共和国官方媒体和文件对这一外延含义基本不予采纳。

[buzhongren]

Speaking of slang has anyone been following the US Navy slang word 'snorkling' associated with Rep. Massa from NY. I watched this term used for a week by the mainstream media with no explanation of its meaning. I didnt have a clue. Finally last Friday night Bill Maher on his show Real Time explained it while seemingly embarrassed. This from a comedian where slang is part of the genre.

xiele,

Jim

[jbradfor]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snorkling

WARNING: NSFW and (potentially) offensive. Also, pay attention to the votes, anyone can post a definition, anything with more than, say, 1/3 down votes should be ignored.

[buzhongren]

jbradfor: WARNING: NSFW and (potentially) offensive

None of those matched the Navy slang version explained by Maher. I never looked at the Internet to see what it said when the term flared up in the media. I was waiting for the political talk show media to explain it. No one did. Youll have to find a salty sailor. But I could tell from the explanation anything said on the Internet wouldnt be close. In a sense #1 is the closest. You do have to come up for air. Ill let some others have fun with it.. Ill explain soon as delicately as possible if there is no further interest.

xiele,

Jim

[imron]

同志 has such a heavy connotation of queer now that it has almost overshadowed the original meaning of comrade. I'd think you'd agree with me when I say to not include this sense in dictionaries would seem to be a decision based on political pressure more than anything else.

I don't think it's a political decision as much as a reflection of language usage. If it were to find its way into a mainland-based dictionary I'd expect the definition to clearly mark it as slang for HK, Taiwan and overseas communities.

[tooironic]

I too would expect the same thing, albeit for different reasons. Your implication is that because it is prevalent in HK, TW and overseas communities it is not used in any real sense in mainland China. This is not the case. The linguistic boundaries between these regions are not as discrete as they once were. We can see this evidenced in many other slang that have been imported from non-mainland regions (的士, 巴士, 山寨, 闪人, etc). Whenever the topic has come up amongst my Chinese friends, I have always identified myself as 同志 (as opposed to 同性恋者), much the same way as I would call myself "gay" and not "homosexual" (due to its ugly, Victorian connotations). I have never come across anyone who said to me, upon my saying it, "What a strange foreign slang!" or "Don't you know we don't say that in mainland China?" etc.

[buzhongren]

tooironic: 同志 (as opposed to 同性恋者)

Now youre saying it isnt slang. I checked the Hong Kong CU online dictionary and it is still only comrade. I checked the Taiwan Ministry of Education dictionary and there is an entry talking about groups comprising GLBT. It still is typical of an oppressed group using it differently than the public at large. From what I hear you saying if someone uses it in writing I still dont know if they are G or L or B or T. In speech I would deduce by sex but still a problem with B or T. It is very common for people to hear patterns of speech and ask Youre not from around here are you. And while Im here Im not going to expand any further about 'snorkling' since there doesnt seem to be any interest.

xiele,

Jim

Edited March 16, 2010 at 02:54 PM by buzhongren

[tooironic]

I never said it wasn't slang. As for print dictionaries, they are behind on this word, despite it demonstrating widespread usage - that's my whole point.

[atitarev]

To the topic of this discussion. I find the 英库 dictionary quite interesting, especially the example translations. Thanks, Null, for sharing! I am definitely going to use it more.