Pinyin "E" Final

[jachristen]

Hi guys. With regards to the sound marked by an "E" final (unaccompanied by other vowels) in pinyin, I'm not exactly certain what sound I should be making. Specifically, does it represent a single, constant sound, or a shift between two sounds? The reason for my confusion is that different sources seem to be making the noise slightly differently. Sometimes it sounds like a constant "uh" type noise, and sometimes it sounds more like a transition from "oo" to "uh." I can't tell if the noise is really the former and just sounds like the latter when slowed down due to the tone shifting, or really the latter and just sounds like the former when said quickly.

[Hofmann]

It's a pure close-mid back unrounded vowel.

[roddy]

How would you explain that in layman's terms, Hofmann?

[jachristen]

Thanks Hofmann, that clarified it for me.

[Shi Tong]

Question:

Isn't the "e" character in "hungry", written as a pure e4 in pinyin, different from the e in a sound like bie3? In my opinion, ㄜ4 means hungry (e4), and ㄅㄧㄝ is a particle word you put after te4 to make special (te4 bie3) are different e sounds.

But tell me if I'm wrong, because I have been many times before!

[renzhe]

There is no "-e" in "-ie"

EDIT: He asked about the -e final, and this is unique. He didn't ask about the "e" letter, which appears in the "ie" final.

In pinyin, you have to think in terms of initials and finals, not individual letters. Although zhuyin separates -ie into a medial ㄧ and a final ㄝ, pinyin doesn't. The final is the entire rhyme. The final is "-ie" and has the corresponding pronunciation.

Edited March 22, 2010 at 01:21 PM by renzhe

[Shi Tong]

There is no "-e" in "-ie"

EDIT: He asked about the -e final, and this is unique. He didn't ask about the "e" letter, which appears in the "ie" final.

In pinyin, you have to think in terms of initials and finals, not individual letters. Although zhuyin separates -ie into a medial ㄧ and a final ㄝ, pinyin doesn't. The final is the entire rhyme. The final is "-ie" and has the corresponding pronunciation.

Oooh.. thanks!!

Now I know!!

[renzhe]

特别 is te4bie2, btw.

[Shi Tong]

特别 is te4bie2, btw.

I kept racking my brain for the tone.. 3rd of 2nd.. couldn't make my mind up.. plumped for the wrong one. Thanks!!

[Hofmann]

How would you explain that in layman's terms, Hofmann?

Thanks Hofmann, that clarified it for me.

See? Have faith in people's ability to follow links and read them.

[Altair]

I am not sure that his vowel is always pure. I believe I have also heard it with the diphthong mentioned on this Wikipedia page, which has the pronunciation /ɰʌ/ in "footnote 2."

I think this pronunciation can be heard in all but the first-tone pronunciations of "te" on http://www.uvm.edu/~chinese/pinyin.htm, which is a site Renzhe linked to before on another thread.

Edited March 23, 2010 at 02:32 AM by Altair

[Shi Tong]

I think this pronunciation can be heard in all but the first-tone pronunciations of "te" on http://www.uvm.edu/~chinese/pinyin.htm, which is a site Renzhe linked to before on another thread.

Strangely I think I know what you mean, with the slight discrepency in the transition between the t and the e final. I must say though, that I think this comes from teachers emphasising the sound "too much".

Just to give you an example, I think most people pronounce 3rd tone without any lift at the end, especially when you're speaking normally, but as soon as you ASK which tone, and if it's 3rd, the lift occurs in a native speaker.

I think this is because what they were taught/ we are taught at school, and the indiscrepency dies when it reaches normal speach patters.

The same thing with te, I think if you concentrate on how to pronounce it, you'll notice a slight discrepency in the middle on the 1st tone. If you listen to anyone saying it quick, or someone just speaking "normally", it just becomes an e sound, IMO.

[renzhe]

I think that the diphtong sound stems from the adjustment you need to make between the initial mouth position to the one needed to pronounce the "-e". It's hard to describe, but you need to drop your tongue very fast. I know that I made this transition too long and it sounded odd. My pronunciation improved considerably once I concentrated on making the transition as quick as possible.

Just to give you an example, I think most people pronounce 3rd tone without any lift at the end, especially when you're speaking normally, but as soon as you ASK which tone, and if it's 3rd, the lift occurs in a native speaker.

The third tone has several distinct pronunciations. It is not pronounced the same way in the middle of the word and in isolation. The falling-rising pronunciation is the canonical one.

[Shi Tong]

Hello renzhe,

I think that the diphtong sound stems from the adjustment you need to make between the initial mouth position to the one needed to pronounce the "-e". It's hard to describe, but you need to drop your tongue very fast. I know that I made this transition too long and it sounded odd. My pronunciation improved considerably once I concentrated on making the transition as quick as possible.

Totally agree with you, and this is where the discrepency appears.

The third tone has several distinct pronunciations. It is not pronounced the same way in the middle of the word and in isolation. The falling-rising pronunciation is the canonical one.

Indeed, and if I was asked to describe 3rd tone, I would probably go with the falling/ rising one when teaching someone. Not so much that I think it's "more correct", but because I'm used to it!

The most common form is the one which comes between words, which is pretty flat and low, would you agree?

[Altair]

I think that the diphtong sound stems from the adjustment you need to make between the initial mouth position to the one needed to pronounce the "-e". It's hard to describe, but you need to drop your tongue very fast. I know that I made this transition too long and it sounded odd. My pronunciation improved considerably once I concentrated on making the transition as quick as possible.

I understand what you are saying, but consider the "he" and "e" on the same chart. To my ear, the vowel sounds the same, and there is no real excuse for a change in tongue position, except to make a diphthong. In fact, dropping the tongue would be precisely what you would have to do to change from an unrounded back vowel (i.e., /ɰ/) to an unrounded mid vowel (i.e., ʌ). The speed is also what you would expect from a rising diphthong.

[Shi Tong]

there is no real excuse for a change in tongue position,

I agree, but I think renzhe is right in saying that's where it comes from.

I think MOST people pronounce it without the transition phase between h and e h-e anyway, so literally speaking, there is no, and should be no change in the -e final, unless you're saying it wrong, or too slowly.

[Guest realmayo]

The falling-rising pronunciation is the canonical one.

I believe it's incorrect to pronounce the third tone as falling-rising even at the end of a word in most cases. Or if not incorrect, then it sounds strange to native speakers.

[Altair]

I think that to my ears:

夺，活，and 我（想） all have the same final and sound like a high vowel gliding to a mid vowel.

得，和，and 额 all have the same final and sound like a high vowel gliding to a mid vowel.

The two series seem to be more or less the same, except that the second does not have lip rounding.

Another reason to to support my theory is that, although there is a 摩 syllable with the inherent lip rounding provided by a labial consonant (i.e., /m/), there is no stressed /mé/ sound in Mandarin. 么 does exist, of course, but this is unstressed and could well result from a reduced diphthong.

Again, am I the only one who hears a diphthong in the syllables that are second or fourth tone (just to remove the issue of whether 3rd tones add some sort of drawl)?