Odd grammatical anomaly

[Shi Tong]

I was reading my mainland Chinese textbook today and came across this sentence structure:

你去买东西不去.

Is this something which is said in normal Chinese grammar on the mainland?

In Taiwan, this would be concidered incorrect, and they would say:"你去不去买东西".

This would count for all of these kinds of structures, and Taiwanese would always put the x不x first, instead of break it up the way I read above.

This thread may be able to be pinned into the simple grammar questions, but I'm not sure how that thread works.. so.. sorry if there is a thread already here like that, but I couldn't find one

Thanks in advance!

[skylee]

I am not sure if it is an "anomaly", though it is not often used AFAIK. Are you sure about "In Taiwan, this would be concidered incorrect"?

[Hofmann]

Although uncommon, not anomalous. I suspect it is related to 嗎, which is a cognate of 無.

[roddy]

Wouldn't raise any eyebrows with me, except perhaps for being a bit pressing in tone. Which textbook is this, and what's the context? I wouldn't really expect to see it at lower levels (no point in confusing 'em)

[natra]

My feeling is that in that sentence, the 去 might not be included at the end.

"你去买东西不？" Seems very normal to me...

Edited April 5, 2010 at 02:54 AM by natra

[Lydia Gates]

I have asked my Chinese teacher once about this.She said it's something like "kou3wu4口误",which you don't really mean it ,but you accidently say it.At first you may want to say"你去买东西吗？"later(before you finish the sentence) you recognise you want to ask"你不去买东西吗？"Then it becomes "你去买东西不去？"

I am not sure if I have posted as what it is like in my mind:D

Hope it can help!

[skylee]

being a bit pressing in tone

I agree.

[Shi Tong]

Thanks for all the replies!

Yeah, I did ask my wife about this, she said she thought it was a bit odd, but it may be the way the Chinese do it, hence why I asked.

I am currently learning from 快乐汉语, and this sentance appears in book 2 (of 8!!), so seems pretty early, since this is a book for learning up to a GCSE standard (16). I am using it for really simple stuff.. basically literacy.. but I am finding some interesting things about it and learning a few new phrases/ words which I didn't know before (like nurse, engineer etc).

I would think it's odd enough to be a 口误, IMO, but it seems like some people think it's relatively common.

The sentance certainly isn't 你去买东西不, and I would think this is maybe even stranger.

Actually, the full sentance is slightly different from the one I described, since I simplified it. The full sentance was:

我去商店买月饼, 你去商店不去?

I was going to give my opinion of this in the first post, but I wanted to know what people thought first without my influence.

IMO, mostly you would hear a 还是 or a 或是 between, making 你去商店(还是)不去?, meaning "are you going to the shop, or not", rather than the short, maybe even slightly rude 你去商店不去.

I consider that the sentance: 你去商店不去 might have a 了啦 at the end as if to say "ARE YOU GOING OR NOT??!?!?!?!"

What do you think?

[renzhe]

It's just spoken language. You wouldn't write it, but it's perfectly acceptable in informal spoken contexts.

[Shi Tong]

It's just spoken language. You wouldn't write it, but it's perfectly acceptable in informal spoken contexts.

oooh.. Interesting, I've not heard it said before either, other than in the context I mentioned before, where it seems a little pushy, like "are you going, or do I have to push you out of the door?" kind of thing.

The other thing I thought of earlier is that the usual thing I would hear is:

我去商店买月饼, 你要不要(跟/和/跟着)我(一起)去.

There seem to be a lot of options for this kind of sentance, yet the one I read seemed either rude or strange... so this is obviously something slightly odd, or something just said in some places.

BTW- In Taiwan they dont seem to say 和 a lot to mean "with", and usually use 跟 in casual cases. I think I read a thread once about 跟and 和.. what's the deal with this? Is it more informal to use 跟 and more written/ literal to use 和? I've found it in Taiwanese kids books when talking about doing something together (like, holding an adults hand would be 和大人, rather than the said 跟大人 that I hear in Taiwan)..

Thanks everyone!!!

[natra]

The sentance certainly isn't 你去买东西不, and I would think this is maybe even stranger.

Grammatically correct? Yes. Formal syntax? No.

[Shi Tong]

Grammatically correct? Yes. Formal syntax? No.

I didn't think this looked right at all.

Why do you think it's correct to add the 不 at the end of the sentance when most people put the positive negative particles all at the start?

[creamyhorror]

The sentence certainly isn't 你去买东西不, and I would think this is maybe even stranger.

I'm guessing it's a mainland thing. Not used in Singapore or (I expect) in Taiwan.

[johndones]

I think I heard that in some taiwanese dramas.

For me it's just like putting 没 at the end of the sentence.

I have no idea about the corectness, definetaly very casual.

[natra]

It is used very often in Mainland China, as well as with the 有 ... 没 structure.

What I have been saying all along - it is not an anomaly. It is quite common, actually.

[Shi Tong]

Narta, this is my initial thought too- seems like it's probably more of a Chinese thing.

I think I heard that in some taiwanese dramas.

Yeah, but we also hear people saying 不 in all Chinese and Taiwanese things, but when it comes to reality, nobody ever says 不 on it's own.

Funny, because I've heard a lot of 没 at the end of sentances, which always means, for example, have you finished 了没? (have you finished or not), but again, this implies impatience or insistance, because, for example:

你吃完了吗

and

你吃完了没

are different in that 你吃完了吗 is just asking if you're done, 你吃完了没 almost asks you to get on with it.. almost "why haven't you finished yet?" because the next sentance to follow on from it would be 你为什么还没吃完了?

So, since we seem to agree that putting 不 at the end of the sentance is normal, I would like to ask weather or not there is a difference in feeling/ sentiment between

你吃完了没

and

你吃完了吗

And also:

我去商店买月饼, 你去商店不去?

and

我去商店买月饼, 你要不要(跟/和/跟着)我(一起)去?

Seems like option 1 in BOTH of these is insistant, close to being pushy or rude.. what do you guys think? Is this ANOTHER Taiwan/ China devide?!:lol:

[calibre2001]

The more formal version of 跟/和 is 與. Perhaps 跟 is more common in southern chinese casual speech. On the taiwan thing check on how people usually say these things in 台語 or 各家話 for a clue. There's a good chance of dialects heavily influencing spoken mandarin over there, just like the rest of china. I do encounter 和 quite often in the mainland though.

[Sarevok]

I wouldn't count this as an anomaly, it appeared in our textbook, which we use in the first grade at our uni... it was mentioned in the same part, where other means of making simple questions like 吗 and V不V were explained. It is supposed to be a special kind of V不V construction, where the 不V part is placed at the end of the sentence. At that time, our grammar teacher told us that it might not be used that much, but we should still learn it, as we might hear it occasionally...

[johndones]

Shi tong - I wasn't talking about hearing 不 in general, but at the end of the sentence by itself, that's why I said I treat it just like 没. Again I cannot promise you that I have heard it, but I definetaly either saw it or heard it. (now having thought about it I think it would be more likely to have been written and pronouncing it that way would seem strange too.)

As for 不去 at the end I feel it's totally ok.

You might say 去不 too (eg 你去不? my gut tells me it would be the only usage, just doesn't sound right if you add more words to it).

[Shi Tong]

The more formal version of 跟/和 is 與. Perhaps 跟 is more common in southern chinese casual speech. On the taiwan thing check on how people usually say these things in 台語 or 各家話 for a clue. There's a good chance of dialects heavily influencing spoken mandarin over there, just like the rest of china. I do encounter 和 quite often in the mainland though.

Calibre, this is a definate.. though I would say that 和 is more common in written format though. Seems like a lot of things that appear in Taiwanese books are much less commonly said, or reserved for news and stuff like that.

Sarevok. Thanks for the input.

Do you think that the sentance as it is implies a certain attitude? I think it seems pushy.

You might say 去不 too (eg 你去不? my gut tells me it would be the only usage, just doesn't sound right if you add more words to it).

Never heard of this (either!!! )..

Do you think that the sentance I wrote implies a certain angry attitude?