need your feedback for pronunciation samples

[Shi Tong]

Hello Morgoth, I listened to the post you just put up.

I think you're definately improving, which is great, keep up the practice!

You're still struggling with tones, try not to think about annunciation as you would in a typical sense (ie- dont think about how you would finish your sentence by going down at the end, dont think about asking a question by going up), just think about the fact that you have to pronounce your tones as dictated by the language.

That's not to say there is no stress in Chinese. If you're getting very good, you can still shout and sound rude if you want to. Or.. you could sound nice too.

[sdourassof]

Drill 13:

Ni shu kan-le duoshao?

Bu-duo. Wo tai mang le.

你属看了多少？

不多。我太忙了.

drill13.mp3

[Sima07]

lǎoshī shì sìshísì, shì bú shì?

Pronounciation #3.

Untitled.wma

[dehuaye]

春晓

春眠不觉晓

处处闻啼鸟

夜来风雨声

花落知多少

Would like to hear some feed back if anyone has time, Thank you.

Practice speaking.mp3

[hchoy]

3.9 drill 7

ni mai zheben shu hua-le duoshao qian?

hua la sankuai wumao jiufen qian.

week4record.wma

[Hofmann]

sdourassof and Sima07,

I wonder if you would gain accuracy if you slowed down, as I described in this thread.

dehuaye,

...路過...跟你師講一下。

huaxia,

What is all this for? All of the things I talk about in response to their audio recordings are things that you should be able to hear and respond to, which you should have done from the first day of class. And I'm no professor; just a 3rd year Mandarin student. I actually think your students got lucky here, as the majority of the responses that your students got were from either me or Shi Tong. From hearing some of your students have absolutely no tones but pronounce most other phonological features correctly, I wonder what kind of standards you have for yourself. Also, is it just me or do most of them seem illiterate? Is this really a university Mandarin course?

And wtf was up with that poem? How does he know that poem? I know he got those tones from somewhere, because I can tell that he does have tones, but where are they from? I certainly hope they aren't from you, as you should know what tone patterns are and how to rectify them in Mandarin. Of course, I already know that it's a deep and widespread problem that people don't get poetry, but it's actually your business to understand stuff like this. It's also your business to correct your students' pronunciation, at least until they are not misunderstood.

[skylee]

It's also your business to correct your students' pronunciation

I agree.

But then it could be fun for students to do something different, out of the classroom, to give them motivation to go on studying. For example, to make them become aware of a large community out there who are also studying Chinese as a foreign language, or if they speak well enough, to be told so so that they know that they can communicate with people other than their classmates and teachers.

I have been reading too much out-of-classroom stuff lately.

[MissChin]

These excerpts are from a dialogue that our class did a few weeks ago. Professor Shepherd wrote in his notes that some of my tones were off. I agree with him but I don't know where to begin my revision. The actual pinyin from our textbook and then my spoken versions of the dialogue are below. Thank you in advance for your assistance

Měidùn fàn zhīqián zǒngshì shuō: “Dù Qiū, xǐshǒu. Bù-xǐshǒu, bùxǔ chīfàn.”

Jiǎngjiu wèishēng a.

Wash Your Hands.wav

It isn't that bad, is it?.wav

[huaxia]

To Hofmann,

While I appreciate the constructive part of your comments, I think you have been harsh recently. For example, you comment to ChangAiling in the other thread with "

第一次聽不懂。第二次聽不懂. Am I the problem?" Yes, I do think it's your problem, since I can understand her without having to go to the scripts in the textbook. Though as a first year student in Chinese, she as well as most of the students in this group has a long way to go, her pronunciation in the recording there was not totally "illegible".

To skylee,

Yes, this is indeed to a pilot project through which I hope to introduce this online community to the students, since some of them may not continue their formal Chinese study after this semester. I want them to be aware that there is a large Chinese learning community out there, so that if in the near future they feel like to do some self-study for their Chinese, they know where to find buddies. For those who will continue with their Chinese classes, it'll also be good for them to be able to interact with other people who are learning Chinese outside the classroom. That was the main intention of my project.

[weizhennuan]

Bai jiashou, gongzi de shi wo bu-qingchu.

Qing nin kan yixia

Feed back is appreciated

Jen Recording 1.mp3

[huaxia]

BTW, Hofmann:

"跟你師講一下" should be "跟你老师讲一下"。 I've never seen people use "你師".

Edited April 26, 2010 at 11:17 PM by huaxia

[Guan_Zhenni]

Zhen bu hao ici, keren yong bangonshi de diannao xing- bu-xing?

Hai, zhege ren zhen suqi, roguo, ta gei wo qian de hua, ta keyi yong bangonshi de diannao.

Untitled (5).wma

[mbebeau]

Hello, if you could please give me some feed back, I would appreciate it!

xie xie

Chinese Unit 3 Stage 7.mp3

[skylee]

BTW, skylee:

"跟你師講一下" should be "跟你老师讲一下"。 I've never seen people use "你師".

What does this have to do with me?

[huaxia]

What does this have to do with me?

sorry, I meant Hofmann. corrected it.

[dehuaye]

"To Hofmann"

um.. Don't type in chinese to me if you don't know WTF you are saying. when I was reading your feed back, I was confuse! I know some of my tones are off that why I want to see if someone can make correction and fix it up. I am chinese and speaks cantonese If you are still wondering where I got the tones from. words sounds different in cantonese, I haven't spoke mandarin in a lot years. now I want to learn it professional. plus I like to experience with different type of reading other then what I am giving in class. Nothing that deals with the teachers. Is like you learning chinese, you cant blame the teachers if you have an accent or off tone, just take more time to practice and get good at it. If you are so good with your chinese, it would be nice for you to Help others. Or maybe read the poem for me, so I can hear it!

[chrix]

huaxia, it's great that you're introducing your students to a community of fellow Chinese learners, but as I've said before, a forum usually doesn't react that well to an onslaught of similar requests by newbies (and on top of that the requests are quite time-consuming because downloading the audio files, listening to them and then judging the pronunciation takes a lot of time). That's why I suggested you introduce your students to other sites as well.

A forum is more a place to discuss things and for people to post questions. Usually not to ask for feedback on pronunciation. Now this forum has had just a thread like that, but it was usually used by active members to ask other active members for their opinion, and that was fine, as it was part of community-building and creating a shared learning experience.

[Hofmann]

um.. Don't type in chinese to me if you don't know WTF you are saying. when I was reading your feed back, I was confuse! I know some of my tones are off that why I want to see if someone can make correction and fix it up. I am chinese and speaks cantonese If you are still wondering where I got the tones from. words sounds different in cantonese, I haven't spoke mandarin in a lot years. now I want to learn it professional. plus I like to experience with different type of reading other then what I am giving in class. Nothing that deals with the teachers. Is like you learning chinese, you cant blame the teachers if you have an accent or off tone, just take more time to practice and get good at it.

It's good that you speak Cantonese. It gives you an advantage, probably in ways you do not yet understand. However, you should understand your position. You asked for help and I gave it to you in what I judged was the best form. Even if you don't understand, it's up to you to do what needs to be done so that you do understand, e.g. asking a question, especially if you want to "learn it professional." Instead you're here implying I didn't try to help you and I don't know what I'm talking about. 你無應該用爾種態度對住為著你服務個人也。

Although teachers often can't make their students' pronunciation perfect, they can have a pretty large effect. It was possible to at least ensure that everyone at least tried to speak with the correct tones. Instead I hear some people who speak Mandarin with characteristics of English voice pitch.

If you are so good with your chinese, it would be nice for you to Help others. Or maybe read the poem for me, so I can hear it!

I wonder what we have here?

[Shi Tong]

Helloooo

Chrix, while I agree this is kind of an onslaught, it's also up to the forum members to reply or not.

Personally I did, but I can see why a lot didn't.

Hoffman, I also half agree that you're being quite harsh, and one problem is that not everyone is quite as academic as yourself. While you offer very accurate comments (like truncated dipthongs etc), they can be quite alienating for students trying their best. Sometimes, IMO, people need to be encouraged in a positive manner and offered a more down to earth explantion of something. That said, I do agree that it's up to them to study and to get to know what a truncated dipthong is.

It does beg the question- what kind of qualification do these students achieve once they have finished this "course", and what can they use this qualification to do?

To me, and I'm not trying to sound harsh or rude, these students sound like they have been learning for between 3 months and 1 year. Some of them are really struggling with their pronunciation, and sound like they're even possibly reading the words from a page, without tones, might I add. Some of them seem to have grasped the concept of tones, but still struggle to apply them, and some of them have actually remembered the tones with the words, which I think gives them an ability.

The other thing I would say to remember, which is very important is that not everyone is built to learn a foreign language, and they're not all built to learn Chinese, and while this may not be the "thing" to say on a learn Chinese forum, this is what I believe.

For example, I learned French up til the age of 16 and showed no special signs of being able with languages, and yet, I learned to speak basic Mandarin within 3 months and was able to hold conversations and write simple sentences. I was also offered a scholarship, (which I should have taken up.) Which proves, in a way, that some people are more able at certain things, and those without talent are not necessarily able to continue learning effectively. They either forget what they're taught or fail to grasp basics like tone (which, while basic to someone like me, and to others on this forum who have been learning for years, is a really tough thing for a lot of people)

I know people who have tried and failed, and even one person told me they had been living and learning Mandarin in said country for 2 years and was still unable to say "thank you" properly, and while I think this sounds crazy to me, (because I could first day), I undestand why they cant- just like I "cant" do computer programming.

[Shi Tong]

Sorry for posting two replies, but I thought I'd keep the replies about the samples seperate so that students can see comments.

Sima007- I'm sorry, and this will not be all negative, but I am going to use your post as an example of mispronouncing tones. Your pronunciations are all pretty much correct, but you say a load of tones wrong:

老师 lǎo​shī​ you say the ​shī​ as 轻声 qīng​shēng IMO.

Then you say:

是 as 3rd tone.

You follow by saying the first "4" correctly as 四 sì​​,

十 shí comes out then as first tone, then your second 四 sì​ comes out as third tone.

Then shibushi is correct. (​是不是 shì​bù​shì​)

So, Your pronunciation of the sounds is pretty good, I think that if you correct your tones you will be able to speak Chinese, but it's imperitive that you remember the tones of each word instead of mispronouncing them, because your meaning will be totally off if you fail to pronounce them correctly.

dehuaye:

I think that Hoffman was being too harsh, IMO, because I think your second half was actually pretty great. I think your pronunciation of the sounds is also really quite good.

I think with practice and perseverance you can definately fix these problems.

hchoy:

While halting, as if you might be checking, re- checking and thinking about the tones and pronunciation as you go, your pronunciation is really pretty accurate. I think this is very good, since it's important not to go ahead thinking you're correct when you might not be.

Misschin:

Pronunciation isn't too bad, but I'd say 1/2 of your tones are really quite off I'm afraid.

weizhennuan:

You're progressing quite well, but I'd say that maybe 3 out of 10 tones is definately wrong, and 2 out of 10 sounds you make dont come out right. So with practice, you can get there!

Guan_zhenni:

Not too bad, I'd probably say watch your tones more than your pronounced sounds, because I think the sounds are not bad, but the tones are off.

mbebeau:

Average, sounds like someone reading pinyin who is English or American.

I'd like to use this as an example of someone struggling with pinyin, IMO and it's a point I'd like to raise:

Pinyin is not pronounced like English.. you dont read it off the page and "get Chinese", I've known loads of people who do this, and it's painful to experience, and it's one of the small problems for some people who use pinyin.

I know a person whose wife is trying to teach him Mandarin and he is still saying "pin yin", with the pronounced "y" like a y in yellow. I also know that he would pronounce "wu" as "woo".

So, you need to go back to listening to the actual pronunciations out of native speakers and apply pinyin to it without thinking how they "look" and sound in your head when it comes to English or some other language unrelated to Chinese.

Some people use zhuyin fuhao, but this certainly has it's own disadvantages (such as a much longer time to input into a keyboard, and because of familiarity, takes longer to read, and requires a totally new learning angle), but it may get into your head that pinyin is a representation of the language, and doesn't relate to the actual sounds.