Reaction to speaking Mandarin in Hong Kong

[jbradfor]

Recently returned from a vacation in Hong Kong, and I was surprised by the reaction I had the couple of times I spoke Mandarin (not Cantonese) there. I'm wondering what experiences other people have had?

Since I can't speak Cantonese, I usually speak English there. However, a number of times when ordering food listed on the Chinese menu, I would order in Mandarin, as trying to translate it into English seemed silly and error prone. Each time, the person was very excited that I spoke Chinese.

This reaction was surprising to me, as on my recent trips to China/Taiwan, no one expressed any surprise or amazement when I spoke Mandarin. [This was in contrast to when I was in Taiwan 20 years ago, when almost everyone expressed amazement. I was quite relieved that the constant comments stopped, as it got rather annoying. But then, to my embarrassment, I actually started to miss the praise....]

I'm not sure why the difference. Maybe Mandarin-speaking-laowai are a dime-a-dozen now in Beijing and Shanghai, but there are fewer Cantonese-speaking-gwailo? That seems quite possible to me, as it's still pretty difficult to get around only in English in China, even in Shanghai, but it's pretty each to get around only in English in Hong Kong, so there is less motivation.

[missbrokensmile]

Personally, I don't think that there is a greater reaction towards a foreigner speaking Mandarin in Hong Kong than China. Any Chinese person is going to be surprised at a foreigner speaking Mandarin (whether they speak really well or not).

But in your case (like you said), you can almost get by in Hong Kong speaking just English, hence less motivation to actually learn the language. So, I guess, most foreigners in HK don't bother learning English. Also, people don't usually go to HK to learn Chinese. If they want to learn Chinese, it's usually Beijing or Shanghai, etc. So in HK, most foreigners are tourists, rather than tourists and language learners...

(I wanted to write more, but I have to go) Anyway, just my two cents...

[adrianlondon]

I spoke Mandarin to someone working in the Asian store here in Basel. I'd heard them speak Mandarin to someone else and as I speak little German (let alone Swiss German) I thought I'd give it a go.

They just stopped, froze, and stared at me for what seemed like ages, and then calmly answered my question. Unfotunately, I didn't understand it so had to ask them to say it again, which rather ruined some of the mystique ;)

[jiangping]

I had a similar experience in Hong Kong. In fact, on the flight over there from Beijing I was proudly sporting my 北師大 T-shirt, and some of the air-hostesses/stewards struck up a conversation with me in Chinese. One of them said I was the first westerner they'd ever heard speaking Mandarin!

I guess it must be down to 1) Cantonese people having pretty good English, and 2) Hong Kong not being a hotspot for learning Mandarin. Also, since many of them are fairly fluent in English already, they don't have the typical "must practice English" attitude, and are quite happy to oblige foreigners with a bit of Mandarin. This is also true of my Cantonese friends here in London.

[skylee]

Very personally, I don't really like speaking / hearing Mandarin in HK, though I don't mind it. If a foreigner speaks Mandarin well, then I would not mind speaking it to him/her. But if they are not good at Mandarin and want to practise it with me, I think I will use the same strategies that foreigners use when they refuse to speak in English in China.

I have only ever encountered one foreigner asking for direction in Mandarin. But she spoke it so badly it was incomprehensible.

[Daan]

When I was in Hong Kong a couple of months ago I went hiking on Lantau Island and ended up in a village in the sticks, where I wanted to buy a beer. It was a hot day. So I walked to the local shop, owned by a man well into his seventies, and started speaking English to him. He did not understand a word of English, however, and replied in Cantonese, so I just pointed at a can of beer, as my Cantonese is, well, non-existent. In that international language of trade, he helpfully explained: "Seven dollars!" and I was happy and replied in Mandarin, hoping that he would understand, saying that I was sorry I couldn't speak Cantonese. He looked at me rather angrily and then said: "Eight dollars!" I was of course still happy to pay that, but a bit surprised...

That's the only negative reaction I've had to speaking Mandarin in Hong Kong; in downtown Hong Kong people don't seem surprised at all and they certainly don't get angry. I guess he was just having a bad day. Oh, and this wasn't in Hong Kong technically, but they were from Hong Kong, so it probably counts: when I was flying Cathay Pacific from Taipei to Beijing, some of the flight attendants couldn't speak Mandarin either, and were really surprised that I addressed them in Mandarin. It took a while for me to realise the reason they couldn't understand me was because they were from Hong Kong, not because my Mandarin was that bad

[Ed Log]

Five years ago Mandarin was really the exception in HK, people who could speak possibly wouldn't due to cultural reasons. Now there is a need (lots of mainland tourists and businessmen viviting) the level of Mandarin has sky-rocketed although obviously low still compared to cities where Mandarin is the '1st' language.

HK is an international city and most non-Chinese speakers operate in English on a day to day basis which is an official language and learning Cantonese offers limited opportunities outside Hong Kong itself. Whenever I am in HK I have only had positive reactions either a "Um Sik Tang' with a smile or an answer back in a heavily accented mandarin. Given HK is probably the most ethnically diverse city in Greater China there should be little surprise that a Gweilo can speak Mandarin nowadays.

[wushijiao]

To be honest, I can't remember anybody really reacting that much to me speaking Mandarin or Cantonese.

As far as speaking Cantonese, most of the times I try to use it, people simply reply in English. Of course, there are some exceptions (a few friendly vegetable/fruit sellers and juice stand people come to mind) .

As far as speaking Mandarin, I sometimes speak it by default in HK, if people recognize my Mandarin-ish accent when speaking Cantonese, and then they will switch to Mandarin.

I often go to a local vegetarian buffet restaurant near my office with my colleague, a loud Beijinger who sounds like he just walked off a 相声 stage. We chat in Mandarin over lunch, and I do have to say that that does attract a lot of weird stares.

I think jbradfor's right that Chinese-speaking laowai are quite common in Beijing and Shanghai, but basically unheard of in HK. In almost three years in HK, I've only seen or over-heard two or three really fluent Cantonese-speaking foreigners. Of course, most have no motivation to learn it, but for the few who dabble in it, but the city's socio-linguistic environment makes it an uphill battle, I think.

With that said, I think HKers Putonghua abilities are getting better all the time, and so it wouldn't be too inconceivable for the language dynamics of HK to more resemble Shanghai's in 10-20 years, with Mandarin widely used as a lingua franca between Mainlanders, locals, and many expats (or at least, a higher percentage than there are today), and with essentially no foreigners learning Cantonese (as basically no foreigners learn Shanghaiese these days).

As a side note, on the whole, I don't remember Shanghaieese people ever being that impressed about my speaking Mandarin, or even if they gave compliments, they weren't nearly as impressed as people from northern China. I have a theory that part of it is due to regionalect areas. For example, Mandarin is generally the lingua franca in Shanghai, not the native tongue of most people. I think they get less excited about it, in the same way that a Dutch person wouldn't get terribly impressed with a Japanese person who can speak English. In contrast, when speaking Mandarin in a Mandarin-speaking area, you're speaking the language they grew up with, and which has more emotional and personal connections to the person. Or anyway, that's what I think might be going on.

Edited April 21, 2010 at 02:39 AM by wushijiao

[abcdefg]

I was in Shenzhen a couple weeks ago and found that when I went to large restaurants and spas near the Luohu border crossing, service staff always first addressed me in Cantonese. When that didn't work, they switched to halting English. I replied in Mandarin.

I guess they figured I was a Hong Kong-er who had crossed over for an evening or a weekend. It was disconcerting. But in other parts of Shenzhen I’ve found Mandarin more prevalent.

Been to Zhuhai many times, and this “Cantonese confusion” seldom happened to me there. Mandarin seems to be the Zhuhai lingua franca, at least for the younger set. So many people emigrated from distant parts of the mainland to find work.

Macao is always a crap shoot: no telling what language they will try first there when taking my order in a restaurant. Have even been addressed in Portuguese and Russian. The Filipino card dealers in the casinos usually get it right.

[Meng Lelan]

Been to Zhuhai many times, and this “Cantonese confusion” seldom happened to me there. Mandarin seems to be the Zhuhai lingua franca, at least for the younger set. So many people emigrated from distant parts of the mainland to find work.

Really? I've got a guy in my Chinese class who married a lady from Zhuhai and it's a linguistically wacky marriage from what I see, him speaking Mandarin to her, but she replies in English because she speaks Cantonese not Mandarin. I guess she understands not speaks Mandarin.

[abcdefg]

People who grew up in Zhuhai generally speak Cantonese as well as Mandarin. Often they learned their Mandarin in school and use it in the business world while continuing to speak Cantonese at home. English is still scarce.

A large percentage of Zhuhai's population moved there from other parts of mainland China, so you will find pockets of Hunanhua or Sichuanhua, for example, as well as standard Mandarin.

[anonymoose]

I don't remember Shanghaieese people ever being that impressed about my speaking Mandarin, or even if they gave compliments, they weren't nearly as impressed as people from northern China. I have a theory that part of it is due to regionalect areas. For example, Mandarin is generally the lingua franca in Shanghai, not the native tongue of most people. I think they get less excited about it

I think that's probably true. I hadn't thought about it like that. Giving a long speech in Mandarin in Shanghai gets far less reaction than just a couple of words in Shanghainese.

[jbradfor]

Very personally, I don't really like speaking / hearing Mandarin in HK

That was my assumption, and why I spoke English. [That, and my English is far better than my Mandarin.] To me, my speaking Mandarin in HK is a bit like a Chinese person coming to the USA and speaking Spanish to me if they don't know English, on the assumption "hey, it's pretty close!"

[Ed Log]

Cantonese IS a cool language, mandarin is not

a recent South China Morning Post article points towards a limited revival in the fortunes of Cantonese in Shenzhen. As it is now, many migrant workers to Guangdong come from the broad Mandarin-speaking areas of China in the northern and south-western parts of the country. Generally speaking, they are unable to learn the local language, due to lack of classes and the large amount of time that they spend working. However, some of the children of migrant workers − the second generation of migrant workers who have often grown up in the cities – are enthusiastic about speaking Cantonese in Shenzhen, partly as a way of asserting their new identity as Shenzheners.

Li Zhen is a 16-year-old high school student who was born in Wuhan and moved to Shenzhen at the age of 10. She insists on talking to her friends in Cantonese.

"My parents do not speak Cantonese and we speak Putonghua or Wuhan dialect at home," Li said.

" …in school, we only speak Putonghua in class. (But) all my friends are Cantonese speakers. Cantonese is the fashionable language among Shenzhen teenagers."

Li's friend, Wang Zijing, said speaking Cantonese made them feel more international.

[skylee]

speaking Cantonese made them feel more international

this is interesting. so different from the Cantonese a dying language point of view (see wushijiao's post).

I went to Shenzhen a few weeks ago. I didn't have chances to interact with local people much. But on a taxi the taxi driver was puzzled by my friends' HK-accented Putonghua and did not know where we wanted to go until I told him (my mandarin is not that bad). The taxi driver simply didn't speak Cantonese, nor did about all the vendors we came across. This was very unlike Guangzhou (but it was several years back when I was in Guangzhou). I am glad that there was Cantonese announcement on Shenzhen Subway, though. And I am glad that people like Cantonese.

In HK, I have met mandarin-speaking people who speak to local people in English (e.g. when buying movie tickets etc). I guess those are mostly mainlanders / Taiwanese working in HK. I think if they can't (or don't want to) learn Cantonese it is fine that they speak in English.

A few months ago I met a couple sitting next to me in a restaurant. The guy spoke Cantonese throughout. The woman spoke in Mandarin. They kept chatting about gossip on magazines and the woman's family, and neither had any difficulties understanding the other. The woman was clearly from Shenzhen, and the guy a HK local. I think they were cool.

[creamyhorror]

A few months ago I met a couple sitting next to me in a restaurant. The guy spoke Cantonese throughout. The woman spoke in Mandarin. They kept chatting about gossip on magazines and the woman's family, and neither had any difficulties understanding the other. The woman was clearly from Shenzhen, and the guy a HK local. I think they were cool.

That is indeed pretty cool. I've heard exchanges like that, but only short ones. A full-blown, animated conversation in two languages/topolects strains my imagination. I'd expect both of them just weren't used to speaking the other language, although they understood it perfectly.

A Mandarin-speaking friend of mine claimed that Cantonese was easy to pick up. She worked in a Chinese restaurant (either in the US or HK) as a waitress for a few months and said she understood it very quickly (don't remember if she claimed it took a month, or less, or longer). I was doubtful, since from what I understand Canto word choice is quite different - not to mention the tonal system's more complicated. I'm not going to be doing waitering, though, so I guess I won't be finding out.

[Ed Log]

Understanding and speaking Cantonese like a native are two very different things.

[creamyhorror]

Well, she was no doubt actually using it in her daily work, but I guess she probably wouldn't have sounded 'like a native'. If only it were that easy to learn Hokkien...or maybe I just need to put in more effort

[Meng Lelan]

A few months ago I met a couple sitting next to me in a restaurant. The guy spoke Cantonese throughout. The woman spoke in Mandarin. They kept chatting about gossip on magazines and the woman's family, and neither had any difficulties understanding the other. The woman was clearly from Shenzhen, and the guy a HK local. I think they were cool.

Wow I wish I were there to hear every word if I could. It would be cool to be a couple like that.

[xiaocai]

A few months ago I met a couple sitting next to me in a restaurant. The guy spoke Cantonese throughout. The woman spoke in Mandarin.

That is exactly like my friend and his Cantonese wife.

I have been to Hong Kong a few times. Unfortunately, my cantonese is bad. The first time when I attempted to communicate in Cantonese, which was quite a few years ago, the person just gave me a blank stare, and then when I apologised that my Cantonese is not very good and asked for permission to speak Mandarin, the blank stare turned to a frown of disapproval. It was not very pleasant at all.

I will never speak English in Hong Kong, even though I know it is one of the official languages of Hong Hong.