"foreigner" in Chinese

[889]

" . . . do you know of any other situations where 朋友 is used in that way?"

The most common stranger-to-stranger use, of course, is 小朋友 xiao pengyou.

Indeed, I think 外国朋友 waiguo pengyou grates because in the mind it echoes 小朋友 xiao pengyou, which is always uttered -- even by foreigners -- in the sort of patronizing tone that's appropriate for small children. But not adults.

[Lu]

Now for some Hokkien ones:

Some other ones are 番仔 (pronounced huan-a) from Amoy (Xiamen) - used for white foreigners - seems like this has been borrowed (as "fanzi") into Mandarin.

Taiwanese use a word a-tok-a, the initial a- is a familiar prefix used for relations and friends. Tok has something to do with the height of the nose, (just looked it up and it might be 卓 pronounced "tok" meaning "lofty, erect or eminent"!) and a is a suffix like 子. Maybe it's 阿卓仔. I've never heard it ued in a bad way, more in a jocular fashion.

I think you're right about the characters for a-tok-a. I detest the term though. Calling someone a 'pointy-nose' is no less derogatory than calling someone a 'slanty-eye', and yet even overseas Taiwanese use this term to refer to white people. I have problems with hoan-a as well, especially when used referring to someone you know the name of. Would be nice if Hokkien speakers started using the perfectly neutral and easy to use word goa-kok-lang.

[Kenny同志]

kenny, I know that's not the implication in Chinese, and so my anecdote was not very suitable here.

But that said, do you know of any other situations where 朋友 is used in that way? Because it seems to be used in that "empty" way only with 外國人,

朋友 is often used in an empty or not real sense not only on foreigners but also among ourselves. It's not uncommon to see a Chinese calling a stranger "my friend". So take it lightly. It is merely a friendly way to address someone.

PS

I've also noticed a similar phenomenon that the audience in an English radio program are also frequently addressed by the host as ffffffffriends.

[Kenny同志]

I will avoid 外国朋友 as possible as I can.

[889]

"It's not uncommon to see a Chinese calling a stranger 'my friend'."

Yes, but "咱们都是朋友!" Zanmen dou shi pengyou! always seems a cue to hold tight to your wallet.

[aristotle1990]

I have no problem with 老外, but I find 外国朋友 patronizing, mostly because it echoes 小朋友. And yeah, they do call tend to call you 朋友 (a greeting that never really struck me the right way anyway) right before they rip you off -- I'm not your 朋友, I'm just coming to buy your 串儿, so stop calling me that.

But note that "friendship" in China often refers specifically to Chinese-foreign relations; think 友谊商店, which usually refers to a store geared towards foreigners.

[fengyixiao]

I have no problem with 老外, but I find 外国朋友 patronizing, mostly because it echoes 小朋友. And yeah, they do call tend to call you 朋友 (a greeting that never really struck me the right way anyway) right before they rip you off -- I'm not your 朋友, I'm just coming to buy your 串儿, so stop calling me that.

But note that "friendship" in China often refers specifically to Chinese-foreign relations; think 友谊商店, which usually refers to a store geared towards foreigners.

I think the word 朋友 is something like 敬语 in Japenese.

朋友≠friend，

Sometimes 朋友 = 同志,sometimes 朋友=fellow,guy. It is a polite word,don't mean you have friendship.

外国朋友、美国朋友、日本朋友、海外朋友、港台朋友、南方朋友、北方朋友、老年朋友、年轻朋友、女性朋友、男性朋友、小朋友、远方的朋友（请你留下来）、高朋满座.

Casually,if two chinese are friends,they may called each other '兄弟'，‘哥们’，in enlish ,it's the word 'dude'。

But,in written text, if two chinese are 朋友，they are friends,just like in enlish.

[chrix]

Kenny, probably I didn't make myself clear enough, I was more trying to explain why some Westerners might not like that term, it wasn't so much about me. I also understand that the term "friend" in Chinese is broader than in English (it reminds me of Indonesian, where teman can also be used to refer to colleagues or business associates).

But if the use of a given term, even if correct in Chinese, leads to resentment of a large number of people of the target audience, then it might be a good move indeed to refrain from using it.

[GreenArrow45]

From the perspective of myself and the other expats I live with here, the only term we don't find to be either insulting or at least mocking is 外国人。 乡巴佬, is definitely a derogatory word for someone, so i don't see how you can justify the use of lao3 with that. As far as thing such as 老外 and 外国朋友, the first our distaste for this comes more from the historical context of the term, which was certainly more negative than positive. As far as being called a "friend" i believe that our reasons echo some of the other posters a bit. "Friend" is a very loose term in Chinese, we have had Chinese guys think we are friends and try to get our phone numbers ect, just because they talked to us for 5 minutes. It also, in the context of wai guo peng you, sounds very mocking, as the person knows that you are not friends with them. To me at least, i think of it as someone calling me "pal" when they don't even know me - which would be mocking me essentially.

[Altair]

FYI, I know one dialect of African English where "good friend" is the default term for initially addressing a request to a stranger on the street. The term is neutral as to politeness. The connotation is roughly the same as saying in American English: "Could you be a pal and do me a favor...?

I think in cases like this, it is imprudent to look only at language and to ignore differences in culture. For instance, my understanding is that saying something literally like "good morning" in Japanese would possibly sound too assertive and like an arrogant statement of opinion (Who says it's a good morning?). Instead, you same something neutral, like "it's early," that no one could really take offense to. You don't say "Good evening," but just "about this evening,...," allowing the addressee to imagine whatever they want as the implied assertion about the evening. That way you don't immediately open the door for possible immediate disharmony. Who is to say that the Japanese are not correct and that English speakers are not horribly arrogant to dare state unilaterally that mornings, days, evenings, and nights are good? On the other hand, are these not simply social conventions that begin from different cultural assumptions. Is sincerity really the issue?

[Shi Tong]

vice versa. this image comes to mind : I was in Turkey. A group of students saw me, and they went "japanese .... heheheh .... japanese ... hehe..." Then I was in Ljubliana, Slovania. And people spoke to me in Japanese ...

I think the most hilarious thing that ever happened to me in Taiwan was that I bumped into a whole bunch of kids.. there was an adult there who was quite friendly towards me and we chatted with the children who thought it was hilarious that I could speak Chinese (ho ho ho....)

Either way.. it got to the usual calling of "美国人".. assuming I was American (ho ho ho....)

I speedily rebuked this with "我不是美国人, 你们猜我是哪里人", upon which the kids guessed through a load of answers, most of which were acceptable (French, German, Spanish, etc, etc, etc) until the most hilarious one of all "日本人".. HAHAHA

At which point I said "我不是日本人,我是英国人".. at which point the children all said "英国人.. 英国没听过.. 在哪里?" At which point I promptly gave up!

Hilarious.

[renzhe]

At which point I said "我不是日本人,我是英国人".. at which point the children all said "英国人.. 英国没听过.. 在哪里?" At which point I promptly gave up!

Actually, I find that answering 克罗地亚 usually shames them into silence.

Many people simply can't deal with that one

[Shi Tong]

克罗地亚

hahahah.. nice.. I like it! :lol:

I never expected that they wouldn't know where England was though?! :blink: Or think I was Japanese!!!! :blink: :blink:

BTW, I have heard 兄弟 used to me by friends of mine- I quite like this, it's like you're being treated as a brother or part of the family.. 帅哥 is reserved for those who are much better looking than myself.. or liars who want to say I'm 帅.. yeh.. rite.

I still dont know how you're supposed to say 黑人 and be polite.. anyone?

[rivercao]

I still dont know how you're supposed to say 黑人 and be polite.. anyone?

“来自非洲的朋友” sounds good，a formal way is using “非洲裔” as an adjective that means African, for example: 他是一名非洲裔律师。

But sometimes the term 黑人 is nuetral, for example: 黑人歌手, 黑人球员. But I think these sounds not so aggressive because these are fields that black people are expertised at, by their nature gifts， so saying 黑人 in these circumstances is really not a disrespect.

[aristotle1990]

The connotation is roughly the same as saying in American English: "Could you be a pal and do me a favor...?

But...that sounds kinda patronizing to me too. Depends on the context, though.

[skylee]

“来自非洲的朋友” sounds good，a formal way is using “非洲裔” as an adjective that means African, for example: 他是一名非洲裔律师。

The problem is Africans are not always black. For example many people in Libya are not black at all. And of course there are a lot of white africans in South Africa ...

I had this observation -

從不同的導遊口中聽到，利比亞和突尼西亞的羅馬/拜占庭古城靠非洲奴隸建成，他們說："Slaves from Africa"，彷彿自己不是非洲人，讓我有點驚訝。 可能我並不完全理解他們話中的含意，不過他們的樣貌也確實不似寬鼻子、厚嘴唇、皮膚黝黑的非洲人。當地人多是高鼻深目的阿拉伯人模樣，膚色較淺，有些更白皙得像白人一般。書上說他們本是隨伊斯蘭教的傳播而來的阿拉伯人後裔，而兩國引以為榮的腓尼基文化、羅馬文化也確實是源自中東、歐洲，但是他們已世代居於非洲，口氣卻像自己不是非洲人一般，總是有點奇怪。

[rivercao]

Anyway, if I want to call a black people, I will ask his name or where he is from first, and then I can say "来自**的朋友" or his/her name with respect.

[Shi Tong]

It's so interesting how one word in one language which is supposed to be respectful to a group (we call black people black people and this is termed as respectful by them in English) can have negative connotations in other languages (like 黑人). I've heard this used quite a lot and it's never seemed to be racist to my ear, but then, Chinese is not my first language, so I might be wrong!

非洲人 is something I've heard before but not used before.. skylee is also right, there are quite lot of white 非洲人 and 南非人, even quite a few people from Zimbabwe are white (I have some living next door.. so)..

And I suppose that some of these words (apart from the obvious ones) are just dependant on your mood, the way it's said, if you happen to be quite tochy etc..

I personally dont mind if someone calls me 外国朋友, but then, if it was shouted in my face, I would know it was MEANT to cause offence.

[skylee]

I am not sure 黑人 has negative connotation. We describe President Obama as 美國第一位黑人總統 the first black president of the USA (never mind that his mother was white） and there is nothing negative in it.

On this forum we discussed before about the toothpaste brand Darkie being renamed to Darlie and then IIRC people seemed to think that it was not right that the Chinese name 黑人牙膏 was not changed as it was racist or something. I do not think the Chinese brandname is offensive, but then I am not black.

[Shi Tong]

Yeah, well, as I said, I didn't think it was negative either, but then, as I said, I'm sure if it was said in the right kind of way, it might be! ;)

I was thinking about 黑人牙膏 and the other 白人牙膏 too while I was writing earlier. I think the reason that people think it's insulting is because it's connected to something that WAS racist before (as you said, it was called Darkie.. something which I didn't know) but the connotation of this is something which was considered racist in the West too.. the idea that black people all have very white teeth.. but on a more racist level, it has been know for racists to say that "if you see a black man in the dark all you can see is his smile", so that's what I feel the racist jab is.

Problem is that they would have to basically rebrand the whole thing to not be Darlie or 黑人牙膏 anymore.

What I REALLY dont understand is 白人牙膏.. what's supposed to be so good about 白人的牙齿? (or for that matter, 黑人的牙齿?).. Maybe it's the feeling of being held appart from others as if you're different.

I dunno.. again, I think it could be down to weather or not you WANT to be offended by things?..

Oh, and my wife calls me 尖鼻子, 小白 and other things which you could consider "racist", but of course, they're terms of affection between us, so, as I said, depends on the circumstances.