Genetic Difference between Northern Han and Southern Han

[Ian_Lee]

According to the recent report by the scientists in Beijing, northern Han Chinese are genetically way different from southern Han Chinese (Guangdong, Guangxi, Fujian, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau and Hainan). Read:

http://news.chinatimes.com/Chinatimes/newslist/newslist-content/0,3546,110505+112004090900094,00.html

There is only cultural affinity between these two groups. In fact, southern Han Chinese are more genetically similar to minority groups like Vietnamese while northern Han Chinese are closer to minority groups like Mongols than with each other.

Now it seems that the theory "Taiwanese are not Chinese" has some grounds.

[林彪]

That makes sense. I've always found it easy to tell the difference between Northern and Southern Chinese simply by appearance.

[bhchao]

Don't know if this is really true, but I heard northern Chinese look down on southern Chinese, regarding southern Chinese as sissies and weaklings. Southerners on the other hand look down on northern Chinese, regarding them as uncultured, ruly barbarians.

[yonglan]

Might one already have seen this in looking through Chinese history? Might we say that Northerners and Southerners physical appearance show this?

Of course, would Chinese schools talk about this much? It doesn't fit in with their Han notions. I don't know if Taiwanese schools still teach the 中華民族 thingy? I've even met people under thirty who've tried to tell me this deal. It was part of the ROC concept of China owns everything next to it.

This has of course been common in most countries that are able to claim some sort of homogeneity (though it is almost never true). It is politically powerful to say "We are one people." Even the immigrant nations tried this, first with their shared WASPness and later their shared whiteness. But for political and cultural reasons some countres seem to have hung on to it a little longer.

[Ian_Lee]

Since the southern Han Chinese and northern Han Chinese are genetically different, China can improve the quality of its population simply by encouraging intra-marriage between these two groups.

So if Beijing men marry Guangzhou women and HK guys marry Harbin gals en masse, in the long run, I guess the average IQ score for the Chinese kids these couples bear can advance by 10 points at least

[Quest]

That's old news. Ggene flow between the north and the south was hindered by the terrains and distance that separated them. Plus, there were numerous ethnic groups both in the north and in the south, and the Hans weren't racially one people to start with. It would be more surprising if the genes were the same between north and south. However, we are talking about minute differences here. Chimps are 99% identical to humans, so how different can northern and southern Chinese be? When we talk about the north (or outside those 7 places, according to your link), we are talking about people in the hundred millions... How much alike can they be genetically?

Since the southern Han Chinese and northern Han Chinese are genetically different, China can improve the quality of its population simply by encouraging intra-marriage between these two groups.

So if Beijing men marry Guangzhou women and HK guys marry Harbin gals en masse, in the long run, I guess the average IQ score for the Chinese kids these couples bear can advance by 10 points at least

Based on what theory?

[Ian_Lee]

A lot of these IQ vs race issues are highly sensitive (or alleged as prejudiced) and I'd better not explore further over here. If you are really interested, read here:

http://www.sfu.ca/~wwwpsyb/issues/1996/winter/keenan.htm

But personally I have a mixed-blood nephew who got a PH.D. from Cambridge by the age of 26.

[Quest]

The Bell Curve is well known, and I've read those Rushton papers and his critics' reviews and comments. These works tend to say race plays a role in a person's IQ level. From what I can tell, such conclusions would seem to discourage intermixing between different people. How does that support your idea? According to you Ian_Lee, America should have the highest IQ average on earth.

[Ian_Lee]

Not average. But definitely a huge segment of Americans are very smart. Otherwise they cannot be the dominant world power for over a century.

[Quest]

Not average. But definitely a huge segment of Americans are very smart. Otherwise they cannot be the dominant world power for over a century.

If you've been to any top technical institutions or research centers in the U.S., you would find out a disproportionately large number of them are first generation immigrants.

My point is, inter-*racial* mixing does not necessarily produce smarter offsprings.

[Ian_Lee]

Quest:

Good question. But why do the mother countries of these top-notched first generation immigrants (notably PRC and India) fare worse than US economically?

Most likely it is because US is a mixing pot while these countries are not albeit they are all multi-ethnic countries.

P.S. I never meant inter-racial in the first place since northern Han and southern Han are hardly two distinct races even though they are genetically different.

[Claw]

Ian_Lee: You're completely neglecting the fact that the U.S. has a government that is very conducive to innovation and is open enough to allow talented foreigners to participate. This has a much more significant effect than any genetic predispositions.

[bhchao]

This is a little off-topic, but the number of Americans majoring in the sciences has declined rapidly. The US government is worried because this will produce fewer human capital with the technical knowledge and innovation needed to compete with the world's best. Most of the students majoring in the sciences at US universities today are foreign-born. Caltech is one example, where most of the kids there are from Taiwan or the mainland.

If this trend continues, the US may not be the dominant power for long since the sciences and engineering are popular fields at Chinese universities, and at schools throughout East Asia.

[yonglan]

Relating to Quest's point, the large number of foreign undergrads, particularly in science and engineering is a phenomenon of immigration. It was true in the early twentieth century when most immigrants were from Europe (though they were not generally in college since at that time less than 5% of the total US population went to uni). Now most immigrants to the US are from Asia. Immigrants tend to be hungry to better themselves; that's why they immigrate. Second and third generation Americans of Asian descent are every bit the slacker of their white, black, and hispanic counterparts.

It's also a function of a developed society. For instance, in East Asia and the Middle East there are much larger percentages of science and engineeering graduates than the US. But they also import more and more US (and other) social science and liberal arts Ph.D.s to teach their undergrads and research and plan their public affairs.

Also, Quest is right to point out that the US historically has had a good environment for developing technology and wealth. Rule of law and social mobility are needed, even if one thinks "their" kind are the master race.

As for the Bell Curve and that sort of psuedo-science, it simply doesn't pan out. For instance, according to the "research" black Africans hardly even have the IQ to properly function in society. Obviously nonsense.

"60 minutes" (a news show in the US) also pointed out another flaw a few years back when Murray in his book suggested that a certain school that "60 Minutes" highlighted a couple of decades before must certainly be a failure. Far from it. The kids from that school were beating the odds of where they came from. It was an elementary school where among other things these poor black children living in a crime and drug ridden hell hole were reading Chaucer -- in elementary school!

Ian_Lee, you've posted this sort of comment elsewhere on this board. Considering what has been said in this light about Chinese in the past, and what some/many people say today, are you sure that's the road you want to go down?

bhchao, though the number of science and engineering grads is down, most of what I can find to read says it's simply because there isn't any shortage of them. Do you feel this is not the case?

Off topic? These sorts of boards would be boring and soon abandoned were it not for tangential sub-threads.

[Ian_Lee]

Yonglan:

Ian_Lee, you've posted this sort of comment elsewhere on this board. Considering what has been said in this light about Chinese in the past, and what some/many people say today, are you sure that's the road you want to go down?

What is wrong with my comment that Northern Han and Southern Han should intra-marry en masse?

Do you mean it is wrong for a southern Han like me feeling attracted by Beijing girl like Zhang Ziyi?

[Claw]

What is wrong with my comment that Northern Han and Southern Han should intra-marry en masse?

Do you mean it is wrong for a southern Han like me feeling attracted by Beijing girl like Zhang Ziyi?

No one said anything like that. Everyone is free to be attracted to whomever they wish. What we're saying is that it's incorrect to suppose that IQ is based mainly on genetics rather than being affected by society (and that certain groups of people are inferior because of such genes). Also, your comment before about interracial marriage raising IQ by 10 points has no basis in scientific fact.

[Ian_Lee]

Another fallacy is that the top-notched students in higher institutions in US are first generation immigrants.

According to the current immigration law, that is well nigh impossible. Most top-notched students are foreign students in lieu of first generation immigrants.

Currently both India and PRC, like every other country in the world, are only allowed to have 26,000 nationals migrating to US every year.

And most of those M.Sc and Ph.D. candidates in those higher institutions, are mostly likely over 21 years old whom do not fit under the category of son and daughter of permanent resident and/or citizen that are entitled to faster immigration quota.

They are only eligible under category 4 which relies on the relationship of siblings who are US citizens. (But since 1 child policy has been practiced for over 2 decades in Mainland China, I don't see many applicants eligible under this category.)

All those foreign students from PRC and India only become first generation immigrants after they graduate and find work and then sponsored by their employers for naturalization.

That is why you find so few PRC nationals-turned-US citizens in US as compared with Canada and Europe.

[Ian_Lee]

Claw:

Who says such theory is incorrect? The just retired Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir used to comment that Malays are less competitive than Chinese because too many Malays indulge in inner-breeding.

Genes do play a part in the intelligence building.

Such topic is of course sensitive in US owing to the African American issue. But I am not commenting on that issue. Why do you need to be so sensitive and make the presumption that it is incorrect without substantiating?

By the way, the 10-point increase in IQ score was of course a joke. Didn't you see me put the icon after that comment?

[bhchao]

The just retired Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir used to comment that Malays are less competitive than Chinese because too many Malays indulge in inner-breeding.

Just because an authority figure believes in something doesn't mean a theory is correct. This is "appealing to authority" logical fallacy.

Also Mahathir has a history of making racist remarks.

I am a southern Han who does not mind being attracted to a northern gal. But I cannot stand Zhang Ziyi.

[bhchao]

bhchao, though the number of science and engineering grads is down, most of what I can find to read says it's simply because there isn't any shortage of them. Do you feel this is not the case?

Yonglan, the decision to major in a particular field is not always tied to needs in the market. Many students in the US major in a field solely based on their passions and natural interests. Most people could care less whether there is a shortage in engineering talent in the job market. If engineering does not interest them, they won't go for that field. This is particularly the case in the US, and is something that is beyond the government's influence.