Genetic Difference between Northern Han and Southern Han

[calibre2001]

Aside the obvious physical differences, what are some common stereotypes made about both north and south han chinese?

[Guest Yau]

I heard northern Chinese look down on southern Chinese, regarding southern Chinese as sissies and weaklings. Southerners on the other hand look down on northern Chinese, regarding them as uncultured, ruly barbarians.

I've never heard chinese "look down" on each other by this way, but they usually characterize people in different provinces, though most of them are ungrounded:

-Cantonese will divorce his wife immediately after getting rich. Imagine they secretly count money in toilet with a titter;

-Shanghaiese is a snob at power and money. They loves to boast and can be more generous than they can afford purposely;

-Hunnanese is the exporter of crimes, the home to prosititution;

-Dongbeiese is strong, always speaks loud but forthright;

-Minority groups like Naxi, Zhuang are soft and gentle, which also makes them a good target for cheating;

-Teochewese is self-productive like a tribe in the Stone Age.

[skylee]

Aside the obvious physical differences, what are some common stereotypes made about both north and south han chinese?

Take a look -> http://www.chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2271

[Guest]

What we're saying is that it's incorrect to suppose that IQ is based mainly on genetics rather than being affected by society (and that certain groups of people are inferior because of such genes).

Well, I think science is against you on that one. Genetics determines all of your limits. Humans and chimps share over 98% of the same genes. For that matter humans and rats share over 95% of the same genes. It doesn't take a whole lot of genetic difference to determine whether you have the ability to study physics, ponder philosophy and play a violin, or whether you lack even the ability to learn one language well. I know many people will say, "Oh, thats not fair, those aren't people, those are other species." Well, your species is hardwired into your genetics.

For the sake of argument, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Humans are somehow "special". Maybe science doesn't apply to us in the same way. But, then you need look no further than the numerous twin studies to see that the same rules hold for us. Twins IQ's are much closer to each other than siblings are to each other. Furthermore, identical twins raised apart have a higher IQ correlation with each other than with their adoptive siblings. Neither of these facts would be true if intelligence were determined mostly by environment.

Don't get me wrong. Environment matters, and it matters a lot. If someone grows up in poverty they will likely not come anywhere near achieving their potential intelligence. Similarly, they will not grow to be as tall or strong as their parents. But, in the same way no diet or care could have made me grow as big and strong as Shaq, there's no environment that will make an Einstein out of someone who just doesn't have the right genes.

http://www.indiana.edu/~edpsych/p540/assign/intel6.html

[ala]

Zhonghua Yi Xue Yi Chuan Xue Za Zhi. 2003 Aug;20(4):365-7.

[The genetic characteristic of HLA-DRB1 locus in the Jiangsu-Zhejiang-Shanghai Han population and a comparison of its frequency distribution with that of other populations]

Feng ML, Yang JH, Ji Y, Lu JW, Lu Q, Ji YH, Xie JH, Yang Y.

Shanghai Blood Center, Shanghai, 200051 PR China. fengml@sh163.net

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the genetic polymorphism of HLA-DRB1 locus in Jiangsu-Zhejiang-Shanghai Han population and analyze the characteristic of the allele frequency distribution in comparison with that of other populations. METHODS: The technique of polymerase chain reaction-sequence specific primers (PCR-SSP) and reverse polymerase chain reaction-sequence specific oligonucleotide probe (PCR-SSOP) was adopted in genotyping a sample of 626 unrelated healthy individuals collected from a Chinese Han population in Jiangsu-Zhejiang-Shanghai area. HLA-DRB1*0101-1001, DRB3, DRB4 and DRB5 were detected. The allele frequency of HLA-DRB1 was calculated, and the allele frequency distribution of HLA-DRB1 in this population was compared with the results from other populations. RESULTS: HLA-DRB1*0101, 0301, 0701, 09012, 1001, 1201, 1202, 1301/02, 1303/04, 1401/04/05, 1402/03/1305, 1501/02, 16021 and 04xx, 08xx were detected in Jiangsu-Zhejiang-Shanghai Han population. The common HLA-DRB1*allele included 09012(17.97%), 04xx(12.53%), 1202(11.42%) and 1501/02(11.02%). The polymorphism information content is 0.9024, and expected heterozygosity is 0.9634 in Jiangsu-Zhejiang-Shanghai Han population. CONCLUSION: The HLA-DRB1 distribution of Jiangsu-Zhejiang-Shanghai Han population shares some genetic characteristic with other Han populations, but it exhibits its own characteristic, possibly suggesting the intermediate state of this population between the southern and northern Han populations. The HLA polymorphism of Chinese Han population is more abundant in East Asian populations. The polymorphism of HLA-DRB1 of Jiangsu-Zhejiang-Shanghai Han population is the most abundant one in this study.

[wiz_oz]

It is quite an accepted notion that the bigger and better the gene pool, the better the off springs.

One of the main point that every one misses is that I said ""bigger and BETTER". All discussions have so far more or less focus only on bigger.

But what about BETTER. Generally, migrants tend to be more outgoing, adventurous, stronger, more motivated, harded working etc etc . This translate to a better gene pool.

It has been noted the the representation of Asians in Australian universities is higher than their percentage of population. I have maintain that it is not necessary that Asians are smarter. It is just that those migrant are drawn from a better spectrum of the community from where they come.

Likewise the Americans. They can be said to be from the better part of Europe and later the rest of the world. And they are still attracting the best.

And so is Australia and Singapore and many others....

[ananda]

In the history, there're many records about the immigrants from north

to south or vice versa. Does the research consider this problem? Although

I'm a quite 'southern' Han in southern fujian, according my family book,

my ancestor came there 1400 years ago from north china with thousands

of soldiers and their families. There're many such things happended in

history in cantone, fujian guangxi and yunnan provinces. The taiwanese

were immigrants of southern fujianese too, the same dialects and culture

could prove it. The reason why some of them tried to prove that they

were another kind of people is that they imagined they had noble japs'

blood during 1895-1945.

[Ian_Lee]

Ananda:

Same with my root. My family chronicle in my hometown at eastern Guangdong indicated that my ancestors moved there from Zhejiang during middle Ming Dynasty.

[PollyWaffle]

Can someone please post (or PM me) the original China times article. I can't seem to access it.

[Claw]

Here you go, PollyWaffle:

2004.09.09　 中國時報

南北漢族 血緣並非一家親

王綽中/北京八日電

　　大陸遺傳研究學者最近有重大發現，原來被視具有共同血緣的漢族，其實南北兩地的漢族血緣相差甚遠，甚至比中國少數民族的差距還要大。這項研究發現，從生物遺傳學的角度來說，中國的漢族只是文化上而非血緣上的完整群體。

　　早在一九二九年，中國就有學者發現了漢族血型南北人群有所差異。最近，北京中科院遺傳與發展生物學研究所副研究員袁義達，在其「中國姓氏：群體遺傳和人口分布」新書中指出，漢族南北之間存在著遺傳結構上的差異。

　　袁義達指出，以中國南方的武夷山和南嶺為界，南北兩地的漢族血緣相差甚遠，南北兩地漢族血緣比南北兩地的漢族與當地少數民族的差距還大，如果從生物遺傳學觀點來看，中國的漢族只是文化上而非血緣上的完整群體。

　　依據北京中科院研究人員收集的漢族ＡＢＯ血型數據，得到了漢族的地域親緣圖。該圖表明，南方人群（包括福建、台灣、廣東、香港、澳門、廣西和海南七地）與北方人群（南方七地以外的）生物遺傳距離比人們想像的要遠得多。

　　對此，袁義達在接受「北京科技報」訪問時說表示，漢族南北兩地血緣的差異在宋代已經形成，其分布規律與現代的分布規律基本一致。

　　有關漢族南北兩個區域人群在歷史上是如何形成的，袁義達認為，華夏民族在長期的遷移和進化過程中，北方民族主要交往和融合的北方地區的少數民族，如匈奴、鮮卑、突厥、羌、蒙古等屬北蒙古人種的民族；而兩廣、閩台地區主要交往和融合的是南方地區的少數民族，如南越、交趾等屬南蒙古人種的民族。

　　中國北方地區地形平坦，人群遷移容易，所以北方人群間的同化和語言統一要比南方地區快。中國南方地區，特別武夷山和南嶺以南，由於丘陵起伏、地形複雜，人群遷移困難，人群間的同化時間長，互相交往困難。長期以來造成地理上的隔離狀態，語言變化很大，形成無數的「族群島」。

　　袁義達指出，幾千年漢族進化歷史也證明南北地區的漢族存在差異，而且是一種群體遺傳基因進化上的差異。因為文化上的差異，包括語言上的差異，通過政府的政策和法令，在不長的時間內可以改變或縮小這類差別，但幾千年的不同程度的隔離和遺傳基因進化中所造成的不同地區漢族次群體之間的差異，才是本質上的區別。

[PollyWaffle]

thanx a mill for that claw!

[pazu]

Well, actually isn't it obvious that the northerners and southerners are different? A few days ago I met a guy, I asked him immediately if he was from Dongbei. Obvious enough, not even from the accent.

[Quest]

Some of these genetic studies have huge sampling problems. I read about a genetic distance study that was conducted on the "world wide population". 100 samples were taken in East Asia. 7!!! samples from Southern Chinese, 1 from HongKong, 2 from Fujian, 2 from Guangdong, 2 from Taiwan. They also took samples in Tibet, Korea, Japan, and Southeast Asia, but none in Northern China. They then went on to conclude that Tibetans were genetically closest to Japanese. Mongols, Tibetans, Japanese and Koreans were in one genetic group. Chinese were closely related to Thais and Indonesians.

I mean "1 from HongKong, 2 from Fujian, 2 from Guangdong, 2 from Taiwan". How well does that sampling represent the population of Southern China? HongKong alone has a very diversified population, picking 1 person to represent hongkong people's genetic makeup? That sounds like BS to me. Same thing for the other three provinces. I forgot the name of that study, but I often see its results quoted in genetic articles and discussions as "the fact".

There are in fact differences between North and South Chinese, but I think the differences have been exaggerated by biased or inadequate genetic studies.

[Quest]

Polynesian

Indonesian

Thai

Hong Kong

Taiwan

Beijing

Korea

Japan

Try to convince me that Southern Chinese are closer to Thais and Malay/Indonesians than to Northern Chinese... I have plenty of examples to prove otherwise. Not that I am discounting the North & South differences, but I just want to point out that results from genetic studies should be put in perspective.

[pazu]

And the beautiful Thai lady may have Chinese blood, I asked my Thai friend how they can tell the difference, they told me, oh Chinese has white skin.

I guess you don't have to get a DNA sample from Thaksin, the Prime Minister, to know he has Chinese DNA.

[ala]

Northern and Southern Han are rather similar paternally (Y-chromosome), but maternal mitochondrial DNA shows "substantial differentiation between Northern and Southern Han." The Nature article below also assumes Northern Han as the parental population (problematic because Northern Han also has its share of admixture with northern peoples over time).

Nature 431, 302 - 305 (16 September 2004); doi:10.1038/nature02878

Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han culture

Excerpts:

On the paternal side, southern Hans and northern Hans share similar frequencies of Y-chromosome haplogroups (Supplementary Table 2), which are characterized by two haplogroups carrying the M122-C mutations (O3-M122 and O3e-M134) that are prevalent in almost all Han populations studied (mean and range: 53.8%, 37–71%; 54.2%, 35–74%, for northern and southern Hans, respectively). Haplogroups carrying M119-C (O1* and O1b) and/or M95-T (O2a* and O2a1) (following the nomenclature of the Y Chromosome Consortium) which are prevalent in southern natives, are more frequent in southern Hans (19%, 3–42%) than in northern Hans (5%, 1–10%). In addition, haplogroups O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7, which are prevalent in southern natives17, were only observed in some southern Hans (4% on average), but not in northern Hans. Therefore, the contribution of southern natives in southern Hans is limited, if we assume that the frequency distribution of Y lineages in southern natives represents that before the expansion of Han culture that started 2,000 yr ago5. The results of analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) further indicate that northern Hans and southern Hans are not significantly different in their Y haplogroups (FST = 0.006, P > 0.05), demonstrating that southern Hans bear a high resemblance to northern Hans in their male lineages.

On the maternal side, however, the mtDNA haplogroup distribution showed substantial differentiation between northern Hans and southern Hans (Supplementary Table 3). The overall frequencies of the northern East Asian-dominating haplogroups (A, C, D, G, M8a, Y and Z) are much higher in northern Hans (55%, 49–64%) than are those in southern Hans (36%, 19–52%). In contrast, the frequency of the haplogroups that are dominant lineages (B, F, R9a, R9b and N9a) in southern natives12, 14, 18 is much higher in southern (55%, 36–72%) than it is in northern Hans (33%, 18–42%). Northern and southern Hans are significantly different in their mtDNA lineages (FST = 0.006, P < 10-5). Although the FST values between northern and southern Hans are similar for mtDNA and the Y chromosome, FST accounts for 56% of the total among-population variation for mtDNA but only accounts for 18% for the Y chromosome.

A principal component analysis is consistent with the observation based on the distribution of the haplogroups in Han populations. For the NRY, almost all Han populations cluster together in the upper right-hand part of Fig. 2a. Northern Hans and southern natives are separated by the second principal component (PC2) and southern Hans' PC2 values lie between northern Hans and southern natives but are much closer to northern Hans (northern Han, 0.58 0.01; southern Han, 0.46 0.03; southern native, -0.32 0.05), implying that the southern Hans are paternally similar to northern Hans, with limited influence from southern natives. In contrast, for mtDNA, northern Hans and southern natives are distinctly separated by PC2 (Fig. 2b), and southern Hans are located between them but are closer to southern natives (northern Han, 0.56 0.02; southern Han, 0.09 0.06; southern native, -0.23 0.04), indicating a much more substantial admixture in southern Hans' female gene pool than in its male counterpart.

Figure 1 Geographic distribution of sampled populations. Shown are the three waves of north-to-south migrations according to historical record. The identifications of populations are given in Supplementary Table 1. Populations 1–14 are northern Hans, and 15–28 are southern Hans. The solid, dashed and dotted arrows refer to the first, second and third waves of migrations, respectively. The first wave involving 0.9 million (approximately one-sixth of the southern population at that time) occurred during the Western Jin Dynasty (AD 265–316); the second migration, more extensive than the first, took place during the Tang Dynasty (AD 618–907); and the third wave, including 5 million immigrants, occurred during the Southern Song Dynasty (AD 1127–1279).

==

BO WEN1,2, HUI LI1, DARU LU1, XIUFENG SONG1, FENG ZHANG1, YUNGANG HE1, FENG LI1, YANG GAO1, XIANYUN MAO1, LIANG ZHANG1, JI QIAN1, JINGZE TAN1, JIANZHONG JIN1, WEI HUANG2, RANJAN DEKA3, BING SU1,3,4, RANAJIT CHAKRABORTY3 & LI JIN1,3

1 State Key Laboratory of Genetic Engineering and Center for Anthropological Studies, School of Life Sciences and Morgan-Tan International Center for Life Sciences, Fudan University, Shanghai 200433, China

2 Chinese National Human Genome Center, Shanghai 201203, China

3 Center for Genome Information, Department of Environmental Health, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati, Ohio 45267, USA

4 Key Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology, the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Kunming 650223, China

[yonglan]

The reason why some of them tried to prove that they

were another kind of people is that they imagined they had noble japs'

blood during 1895-1945.

Glad to see we have another Taiwan expert from the mainland on this forum. That makes 3 or 4 now.

" japs' "

[Of course' date= I use the word 'expert' with the same irony the Chinese government does on my red expert book.]

[Ian_Lee]

Quest:

Every southerner can tell Faye Wang from the pic that she is a northern girl albeit she can now speak almost perfect Cantonese.