Comparing Cities In China With Those In The West

[knadolny]

So I am a structural engineer living in Tokyo and am now doing some projects in China and the Middle East. Finally have gotten myself a Chinese project so my Chinese is being put to the test!

In any case I am continuing to be amazed at the scale of the construction in China. There is a new development in Tangu, Tianjin where they want to develop a peninsula into a Manhattan like financial center. Hopefully, I'll be working on the design of one of them.

Another project is going on in Saudi Arabia where again they are trying to build a financial capital in Riyadh. Basically both cases are building huge new cities with the most advanced skyscrapers.

My question is:

what city in the west can compare? Any time and any place.

I always think New York in the early 1900s. The amount of construction, progress, and sense of opportunity must have been similar. Or maybe contemporary Las Vegas?

Thoughts?

[gato]

China is undergoing rapid suburbanization at the same time as urbanization. What makes China very different from the US， at least， is that over time the central government has given cities control over large swath of what used to be farm land around the cities. So now Chinese cities are some of the largest in the world both in terms of area and population. Beijing's area is over 16000 sq km, compared with 1700 sq km for London, 1200 sq km for New York City, and 1100 sq km for Hong Kong. It's a reason why Beijing seem so sprawling. Los Angeles County (as opposed to LA city) comes close to Beijing at 12000 sq km.

What's different about suburb in China is that most housing in suburb will be high-rise apartments, too. Population density is such that it can't really afford single-family homes with big yards. Actually, those are called villas in China.

Here is a list of the physical size of some Chinese and non-Chinese cities:

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/14199330.html?fr=qrl&cid=475&index=1&fr2=query

Beijing 16808 sq km /北京现辖10区9县，面积16808平方公里，其中市区面积4568平方公里。

Shanghai 6341 sq km /上海市面积为6341平方公里(市区376平方公里)，辖12区，9县。

Guangzhou 7434 sq km /广州市总面积为7434平方公里(市区1444平方公里)。

Wuhan 8392 sq km /武汉市面积8392平方公里(市区1607平方公里)。

Shengyang 8515 sq km /沈阳市面积8515平方公里(市区3495平方公里)。

Xiamen 1043 sq km / 厦门市区面积1043平方公里。

Taipei 271.8 sq km

Hong Kong 1,104 km2

Tokyo 2,187.08 km2

London 1,706.8 km2

San Francisco 600.7 km2

New York City 1,214.4 km2

Harris County (Houston) 4,605 km2

Los Angeles County 12,307.6 km2

[roddy]

I know it's not quite the same thing, but what about the construction of entirely new cities? Brasilia was built from scratch in four years or something, I think.

[JenniferW]

I'm in the UK and our situation is so different.

We had a phase of building 'new towns' - not new cities! That started after WWII, because of the need for replacement housing as well as expanding the total amount of housing available. But our population density is so much lower - and culturally we go for urban development of limited size. We get really twitchy about too much development and expansion - upwards as well as outwards.

But for reclamation of land / creation of land, what about the Netherlands? Has any country ever done as much as them?

[doraemon]

Whoa...I never realised Beijing is so much bigger than all those other western (and Chinese) cities. Sydney's actually pretty expansive, 12000 square kilometres. I think Chinese cities also have very efficient and economical public transport systems, not that other western cities don't (except for Sydney, transport services are appalling and exorbitant). Most other western cities have pretty public transport, right?

And the most noticeable difference is that Chinese cities tend to have more high-rise apartments whereas there are a lot more suburban areas in western cities with houses.

On a completely different note, I prefer cities which are 'geometric' (all the roads, buildings are perpendicular), flat (as opposed to hilly) and aren't that packed with too many contiguous skyscrapers which create a claustrophobic effect. Anyway, I seem to find that Beijing doesn't have all that many skyscrapers like Shanghai or Hong Kong etc do.

[roddy]

Actually if you look at Chinese 'cities' overall the most noticeable difference is that they're all fields and fish farms. The classic case is Chongqing - they redrew the borders to bring the Three Gorges project under one administrative entity, and bam - world's 'biggest' city. Other concerns are food and water security. Here's a few hundred square kilometers of 'Beijing'.

edit: fixed link, had accidentally strayed into Hebei. 呵呵。

[gato]

Give them time. Beijing Third Ring Road was only finished in 1994. Much of what is outside the Third Ring today was considered far suburb back then.

In the last decade, most cities in China have been eagerly developing so-called new city areas (新城区) from essentially what used to be farmland. It's mostly modeled after Shanghai's Pudong, with wide roads designed for private automobile. You see this in big as well as small, whether it is Hangzhou or Wuxi.

[knadolny]

Most other western cities have pretty public transport, right?

Not really in the US. New York is the one exception but it's just convenient not pretty.

On a completely different note, I prefer cities which are 'geometric' (all the roads, buildings are perpendicular), flat (as opposed to hilly) and aren't that packed with too many contiguous skyscrapers which create a claustrophobic effect. Anyway, I seem to find that Beijing doesn't have all that many skyscrapers like Shanghai or Hong Kong etc do.

Good point. I really enjoyed living in Beijing. Everything was aligned so well. Most apartments face south and are set back from property lines enough to enjoy the view. But I do love getting lost and Tokyo is the perfect city for that. I have to spring 80 bucks a month for GPS on my cell phone or else I would not get home some evenings.

In the last decade, most cities in China have been eagerly developing so-called new city areas (新城区)

That's just the kind of project that I am working on now. We call it the Tianjin Project Competition, but it's really in Tanggu which is quite far from the city center of Tianjin. I found that out personally when I took a boat from Korea to "Tianjin". I landed in the middle of nowhere (Tanggu industrial port) with no money and no hotel. That was a fun bargaining experience.

In any case, we have similar "new towns" in Houston (my hometown), but yeah nothing on the scale of China. We have The Woodlands development and Sugarland which are suburban sprawls with mostly low rise buildings and a conspicuous lack of public transportation (to keep out the rift rafts).

Brasilia was built from scratch in four years or something, I think.

Brasília was built in 41 months, from 1956 to April 21, 1960, when it was officially inaugurated.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bras%C3%ADlia#History

[gato]

In any case, we have similar "new towns" in Houston (my hometown), but yeah nothing on the scale of China. We have The Woodlands development and Sugarland which are suburban sprawls with mostly low rise buildings and a conspicuous lack of public transportation (to keep out the rift rafts).

It is a very energy-intensive way of living. Most families have to have two or three cars. Unfortunately, I think China is moving in that direction, too. China just surpassed the United States in total car sales last year.

[xianhua]

.Unfortunately, I think China is moving in that direction, too. China just surpassed the United States in total car sales last year.

This fact was very much evident on my last trip to China where the 'fashion' was to pass the driving test. In some cases, the people taking the test didn't own cars as yet, but aspired to ownership, and figured that the driving test may become more challenging in the coming years. I then spent the rest of my trip wondering where people would put all of these cars. New builds could factor in car spaces, but as for the existing schools, department stores and businesses, they'd have to rebuild or expand many of them to factor in greater car ownership.

[jbradfor]

But our [uK] population density is so much lower - and culturally we go for urban development of limited size.

China's population density: 139.4 people per square km.

UK's population density: 254.7 people per square km.

Source here

China is actually very very "undensely" (is there a word for that?) populated compared to most other countries. It's just that most of the population is concentrated along the coast, so that part feels ore dense.

[knadolny]

To add in more info:

Japan is 337 persons per square kilometer

United States is 32 persons per square kilometer

South Korea is 486 persons per square kilometer

Source is the same.

Yeah I visited China four years ago. Am going back in the next month or two and am planning to be shocked by all the cars. That is one model I wish they wouldn't borrow from the US. I am becoming a huge fan of Japan's public transportation.

I remember four years ago drinking in Sanlitun and being overwhelmed by all the cars on the sidewalk.

Has anyone read Peter Hessler's new book, "Country Driving"?