Confusing Sentence Structure

[dr. Hannibal Lecter]

Hi everyone!

I've been learning Chinese language for several months now. I'm doing this on my own as a hobby, "for fun" so to speak, although I'm hoping it will become useful sometime in the future. I'm using primarily Livemocha and a book I bought (Colloquial Chinese by Kan Qian). Livemocha is a decent feedback resource for my spoken Chinese, but my written Chinese is often lagging.. I need grammar explanations like there's no freakin' tomorrow! :unsure: I hope I've come to the right place

My latest lesson on LM included the following sentences which are a bit strange in my head. I hope someone can clarify some of them.

每个人都在跳。 - If 每 and 都 both mean "all" (every/all), why use them both at the same time? Why not just 每个人在跳?

所有的东西都在袋子里。 - The use of 所有的 and -again- 都 is really confusing here. Is it: "All of the things I own are in the bag"? Am I getting this right?

袋子里什么东西都没有。 - 什么东西都 is the part I don't get (which messes up the entire sentence for me). What's the purpose of 什么 here?

那个女孩没有吃的东西了。 - What is the purpose of 了? Is it simply indicating past tense or something else?

桌子上什么也没有。 - Hmm..everything? Why 什么? Why 也? If I understood correctly, it's supposed to mean "There is nothing on the table." Am I right? And if I am, why am I right? :huh: I have the same 也 problem in "汽车里一个人也没有"..

I apologise if these are the most stupid questions you've ever seen, I am an extreme beginner and learning on my own is not always an easy thing to do

[Farkas]

I think you should look it up in the grammar books, you may find more answers.You catch most of them, but if you want the exact answer, it's difficult for the replies

[gougou]

I would also suggest you get a book with decent grammar explanations.

As for your questions:

每个人都在跳, 所有的东西都在袋子里。 I think the 都 is used for emphasis and can be omitted （Bing gives about equal number of results for "所有人在" and "所有人都在"). Also note that 所有 in this context does not mean own, but all/every.

袋子里什么东西都没有, 桌子上什么也没有

Question words + 都 are fixed expressions. E.g. 什么都 = everything, 谁都 = everybody, 哪里都 = everywhere... Together with a negative, it would be the opposite, e.g. 什么都没有 there's nothing. In negative constructions you can also use 也 for the same purpose. Thus the two sentences would be "There's nothing in the bag" and "There's nothing on the table".

那个女孩没有吃的东西了。

The 了 could stand for a change of state here, i.e. she doesn't have anything to eat anymore. See also this topic.

[dr. Hannibal Lecter]

I would also suggest you get a book with decent grammar explanations.

The book I have offers nice grammar explanations after each text, but those grammar points are related to the text itself (obviously :rolleyes: ). Unfortunately, Livemocha lessons have no such background info. These two do not "complete" each other as much as I'd like them to. Another obstacle is the fact that in my country (Croatia), obtaining any kind of Chinese-learning book is a skill. But if I ever get a chance... B)

每个人都在跳, 所有的东西都在袋子里。 I think the 都 is used for emphasis and can be omitted （Bing gives about equal number of results for "所有人在" and "所有人都在"). Also note that 所有 in this context does not mean own, but all/every.

People use bing?

So, just to clarify, 都 in both 每个人都在跳 and 所有的东西都在袋子里 can be omitted?

Question words + 都 are fixed expressions.

Didn't know that, awesome info!

Thanks for the help, especially for the thread about 了, that will keep me busy for a while.

[zhxlier]

No, they can not be omitted. I can't explain though. Sorry.

So, just to clarify, 都 in both 每个人都在跳 and 所有的东西都在袋子里 can be omitted?

[gougou]

I see. If I was you, I'd probably focus on making more progress in the book, and thereby learning more about grammar - and ignore anything you don't understand on Livemocha in the hope that it comes up later in the textbook.

Or, just come to China and buy plenty of cheap Chinese learning books ;-)

[dr. Hannibal Lecter]

I'll try and do that. The focusing on the book part, not the traveling to China part. B) I wish I could do that one day, but my resources and my schedule don't allow that right now <_<

Are you aware of any good online grammar resources? An online grammar reference..that would be handy..

[buzhongren]

Are you aware of any good online grammar resources? An online grammar reference..that would be handy..

Every important grammatical structure I find in my grammar books I can find on the Internet. They mostly reside in some PDF written by some Master or Phd student in Chinese. Another good source is Google Books. Most are Limited Previews but doesnt seem to get in the way. Of course there is the chicken and egg problem. You need to frame the search query with the grammatical element you are looking for which probably comes from a good grammar book on hand. Grammar is an accumulation of sentence patterns in Chinese. Its not all in one place but knowing how to look on the Internet is the key. Here is a Google Book I use:

A Practical Chinese Grammar

xiele,

Jim

[Shi Tong]

In the cases of 什么都.. I think they're really for extra emphasis in a lot of cases there old chap-- and yes, it's very similar to the use of "bing4", like "bing4 meiyoudongxi".

It's like saying "completely", so 袋子里什么东西都没有-- "Inside the bag is absolutely nothing"

Of course, as with anything, you can subsititute with other things like "kong1de" (empty).. so the bag is "kong1de" is also "the bag is empty", but it just doesn't have the same spice.

Same with this:桌子上什么也没有.. it's almost like saying "there is ALSO nothing", so, there is absolutely nothing.

那个女孩没有吃的东西了 is simply saying that she's run out.. so yes, it's like past tense. She previously had things to eat, now she's run out 了.

Hope that helps.

If you have trouble with these rules, apply them to very simple sentences and you'll get used to the useage:

什么都没有 can be used without the 东西 in the middle, which makes the sentence longer and more complex- try using (我)什么都没有 as an introduction to the phrase (I have absolutely nothing).. and you could use this kind of sentence if you're waiting for your plate of food while the others have theirs already to eat.. "I have absolutely nothing" (you all have yours).

Same with the (我)什么东西也没有 (for some reason I'd be tempted to say you have to add 东西 into this sentence), but you can use it in the same situation.

Good luck!

[dr. Hannibal Lecter]

@buzhongren:

The link you provided is awesome. It never occured to me to try searching in something like Google books, I'm not sure why.. :blink: Also, as you mentioned, first I need to recognise the pattern and then try to search for it in a meaningfull way. I guess that's a part of learning

@Shi Tong:

Thank you for your detailed explanations, this helps a lot! Now that I know what's it all about, I think 也 in 什么东西也没有 is the most confusing one. :o

Is the "bing4" you're mentioning in "bing4 meiyoudongxi" this bing: 并? So "并没有东西" would also mean "absolutely nothing" ("really nothing"/"truly nothing")?

Hmm..I know this a bit off topic, but does anyone know a good website which could be used for finding the correct measure word for a noun? I've searched pretty much everywhere for that but never found anything usable. :mellow:

Thanks again for your help! B)

[gougou]

Is the "bing4" you're mentioning in "bing4 meiyoudongxi" this bing: 并? So "并没有东西" would also mean "absolutely nothing" ("really nothing"/"truly nothing")?

Yeah, it's 并。As for its usage, see this thread.

[trien27]

No, they can not be omitted. I can't explain though. Sorry.

每个人都在跳:都 = all of the people/everyone

所有的东西都在袋子里:都 = all the things in the bag/everything

[sinodemeanour]

1.每个人都在跳。

- “每个”is the “定语”〔attributive (modifier) of “人”。“都”is the “状语”〔adverbial adjunct〕 of “跳”。So they can be seen in one sentence，but we don't say “每个都人在跳” or “人每都在跳”。

2.所有的东西都在袋子里。

just the same as "1"。

"都"可以去掉，但是我们用，是为了强调没有例外。

you can omit “都” But we use "都" to emphasize no exception.

3.袋子里什么东西都没有。

Here "什么" means "anything" ,It‘s not “what”，like “任何” in Chinese。

ex.我什么都不知道。I didn't know anything.

什么都可以。ALL is OK.

Of course ，You can say “袋子里什么也没有”。

4.那个女孩没有吃的东西了。

“了 ”is used to indicate “in ……state”，maybe it happened 。

A:你吃午饭了么？ B:我吃饭了。

Did you have lunch？ Yes ，I did。

5.桌子上什么也没有。

汽车里一个人也没有"

“什么……也没有” and “什么……都没有” more or less the same 。Here “也” you can understand it as “at all”。

“一个……也没”，“一个……也不”means “not ……at all”。

”我一个也不知道“，means I doesn't know the answers of these questions ,even only one answer of one question."

My English is far worse than my Chinse ,So ,I maybe made some mistakes in my explanation.

So can you understand these sentences？

每个句子都很难。

我每天都很忙。

句子里每个字都不可以没有。

我一个女朋友也没有。

我一个汉字也不认识。

我什么汉字都不认识。

我什么都想要。

我什么都不想要。

我一个都不想要。

[buzhongren]

@buzhongren:

The link you provided is awesome. It never occured to me to try searching in something like Google books, I'm not sure why.. :blink: Also, as you mentioned, first I need to recognise the pattern and then try to search for it in a meaningfull way. I guess that's a part of learning

Here is another well regarded grammar book:

Mandarin Chinese: a functional reference grammar

All the grammar books I find in my local and university libraries I find in Preview on Google Books like the ones from Don Rimmington. The ones by John De Francis are only available in Snippet form. But still searchable.

Here is one you probably would enjoy:

Chinese Grammar and English Grammar

There are a class of books Teaching Chinese as a Foreign Language (TCFL). Here is one:

Teaching and learning Chinese as a foreign language: a pedagogical grammar

Ive gained a new appreciation for Chinese word patterns in addition to sentence patterns.

xiele,

Jim

[dr. Hannibal Lecter]

@sinodemeanour:

I think I got the point. If I understood correctly:

每个人在跳 = everyone is jumping = I want to convey the message that everyone is *jumping*; however,

每个人都在跳 = everyone is jumping = I want to convey the message that *everyone* is jumping; it's not about what's being done it's about who's doing it, and that's the main point of this sentence

Am I right? :unsure:

I think I understand about 了 also. Makes wonder if the question 你吃午饭了吗？ can be written without 了 (你吃午饭吗？), would it make any sense at all? My guess is no (unless it's something like 你想吃午饭吗？), but that's a very uneducated guess.. :unsure:

I will try to translate the sentences you gave in the end (please be gentle when correcting me ;) )

每个句子都很难。 = All the sentences are difficult/hard.

我每天都很忙。 = I am busy every day.

句子里每个字都不可以没有。 = Every character in the sentence must exist. :unsure: :huh:

我一个女朋友也没有。 = I don't have a girlfriend at all.

我一个汉字也不认识。 = I don't recognise even a single character.

我什么汉字都不认识。 = I don't recognise any of the characters.

我什么都想要。 = I want everything.

我什么都不想要。 = I don't want everything.

我一个都不想要。 = I don't want anything at all.

I think I'm probably wrong on 句子里每个字都不可以没有; I think that's the first double negative I've encountered in Chinese.

And don't worry about your English, it's perfectly fine. It's my second language too, there is probably a Brit here just waiting to slap both of us

@buzhongren:

These are also awesome, thanks! It's amazing what one can find on "the internets".. B)

[gougou]

我什么都不想要。 = I don't want everything.

我一个都不想要。 = I don't want anything at all.

These I would translate as "I don't want anything" and "I don't want a single one", respectively.

The double negative is a bit weird, but you got the gist of it; in essence it means that you can't leave out any character in the sentence.

[dr. Hannibal Lecter]

These I would translate as "I don't want anything" and "I don't want a single one", respectively.

The double negative is a bit weird, but you got the gist of it; in essence it means that you can't leave out any character in the sentence.

It's funny, while I was reading your message I realized my mistake! B) I went back through the Livemocha lesson and it's starting to make a lot more sense than before. I guess I needed everyone here to push me in the right direction (it would be awesome to have a Chinese friend in real life for these things!). The double negative is still quite weird I must say, but at least I'm on the right track!

@Everyone: Thanks for all your help and tips! ;)