How To 'acquire' A Native Like Accent?

[fengyixiao]

I think the 'age' is the main point.

The man who has lived in china for 14 years is too old,even in the year when he came to china on the first time.

His daughter just married last year.

While the others are almost students,they can adapt their ear and tougne.

莲娜 from 亚美尼亚 who has a daughter born in china，the daughter now can correct her mother's pronuancation and grammer,words etc.

So, I this the 'age' is the main factor.

[doraemon]

I think natural talent with languages is a factor which comes into play but hard work is definitely the key to achieving perfect pronunciation. Basically just listening to natives talk and keep imitating until you sound just like them. It's more the mental side of things rather than your physical capabilities. If you really think you can do it and work hard at it, you will be able to eventually.

[dumdumdum]

Hi folks,

I've recently been watching a show called 世界大不同 (Shijie Da Bu Tong)snip

i think this is not really productive trying to mimic a certain accent... and in fact difficult to apply. i would rather ppl spend that effort talking up more contexts regarding chinese lang and culture than learning an accent, which one would at times fail to apply in certain instances. oops i suddenly revert back to my western accent... but of cos, this is only my own opinion.

china is a vast country, there are literally thousands of accents in china, not talking about dialects, but putonghua accents. even in beijing itself where putonghua is supposed to be 'standard', there are other non-residents, with a population equals to the beijing residents, and they speak all sorts of putonghua accents, so which is more native? the true beijing has a pop of less than a mil after 1950, but the chinese govt filled it up with ppl from all over china. if we say beijing accent is 'standard', we are actually talking about a small percentage of the true beijingers...

i once had that kind of thinking, that the chinese are using standard mandarin, whereas i'm not. but when i studied there yrs ago among the chinese, half the class is speaking less than accurate pinyin than i do, 1/4 from beijing speak with the typical '-r' tone, and the rest are quite accurate despite their hometown accents. from then on i dropped the idea of 'standard accents'. even in america, an irish-born, a german-born or an afro would give u different versions of american english. heck even a new-yorker and a texan would speak differently. same thing in britain, a scot-scot wouldnt be saying the same thing as a londoner.

as long as both sides can mutually communicate, might as well spend that amount of time on something with more knowledge in return.

[dumdumdum]

snip

i kinda have a little reservations on this standard thingy... the pinyin itself was revised 5 or 6 times in the past 50 yrs since 1958... thats like reviosion every 10-12 yrs, but of cos the changes made are not major, usually a couple of dozens words out of tens of thousands of chinese words.

but for the sake of discussion, say we push it to an extreme, then we can some how say that a chinese kid would turn around saying his dad's pronouciation is not standard by the time he goes to sch, and when he grew up, got married, the grandson could literally turn around shooting at his dad and grandad's mandarin pronouciation, if he adhere to the 'standard textbook pronouciations'.

not saying that we shouldnt stick to the commonly taught pronouciation, we should still be learning the basics. but yeah, not so much emphasis as to mimic a specific accent. one good thing for modern mandarin compared to old chinese is that most terms are generally made up of 2 or more words, not singular words in old chinese, and the chances of getting into trouble or mockery with similarly pronouced mandarin terms are largely reduced.

[fengyixiao]

snip

These are the different things.

Even you learn 天津话 or 上海话，there is still the problem:wether your accent is like the native speaker(天津人 or 上海人)?

[Shi Tong]

Give a person who has the talent to paint a paint brush, and they can paint quite well, teach them other techniques and their ability will grow.

Give a person who has no talent to paint a paint brush and regardless of how long you will teach them, their ability will remain average.

Same as in Chinese IMO- in other words- some people who have a talent in the language will flourish given teaching and hard work- for those who simply cant or dont understand, regardless of how long you teach them, their ability will remain average.

As to the locality or quality of the language you're speaking due to accent, if you sound like those people around you, then you've acheived copying an accent accurately.

[roddy]

Sorry, but 'talent in the language' is way too fuzzy for my liking. If someone's good at any particular language I'll wager it's some combination of liking it, working hard (or smart) at it, having the right environment, good teachers, whatever.

[aristotle1990]

china is a vast country, there are literally thousands of accents in china, not talking about dialects, but putonghua accents. even in beijing itself where putonghua is supposed to be 'standard', there are other non-residents, with a population equals to the beijing residents, and they speak all sorts of putonghua accents, so which is more native? the true beijing has a pop of less than a mil after 1950, but the chinese govt filled it up with ppl from all over china. if we say beijing accent is 'standard', we are actually talking about a small percentage of the true beijingers...

i once had that kind of thinking, that the chinese are using standard mandarin, whereas i'm not. but when i studied there yrs ago among the chinese, half the class is speaking less than accurate pinyin than i do, 1/4 from beijing speak with the typical '-r' tone, and the rest are quite accurate despite their hometown accents. from then on i dropped the idea of 'standard accents'. even in america, an irish-born, a german-born or an afro would give u different versions of american english. heck even a new-yorker and a texan would speak differently. same thing in britain, a scot-scot wouldnt be saying the same thing as a londoner.

I don't know -- have you hung out with a lot of Chinese young people? There's a pretty standard way of speaking that remains consistent from province to province, at least among the middle class. (Similar to how in the US the only people who speak with markedly non-standard accents are usually from low socioeconomic backgrounds.) You do get tones and pronunciations that are not quite standard from time to time -- I've heard things like biǎotí and jiàngjun and zhòngzi (for zòngzi) before, and see this -- but I find that what young Chinese people say is almost always in line with the standard textbook pronunciations.

Sorry, but 'talent in the language' is way too fuzzy for my liking. If someone's good at any particular language I'll wager it's some combination of liking it, working hard (or smart) at it, having the right environment, good teachers, whatever.

With most things about language learning, I think that's generally the case. But I've met enough people who have fairly decent accents despite not really seeming to be all that into the language and enough people who have terrible accents despite having passion for the language and an awesome environment (Chinese girlfriend/wife, years in China, rigorous studying and consequent fluency/large vocabulary, etc) to believe that natural talent plays a significant role. I know this one quite American-sounding girl whose tones and grammar and vocabularly are all equal to or better than this French kid in the same class whose accent is significantly better than hers.

To play devil's advocate here, though, it's certainly possible that musical or vocal training at an early age could affect one's abilities later in life.

[rezaf]

There are people who are naturally talented and kids are usually more talented than adults in learning a language and lots of other things. Humans tend to get more 笨 as they grow up.

[Flying Pigeon]

I think the 'age' is the main point.

The man who has lived in china for 14 years is too old,even in the year when he came to china on the first time.

His daughter just married last year.

So, I this the 'age' is the main factor.

Totally disagree! Never bought into the "can't teach an old dog new tricks" BS.

So if that old guy's daughter hadn't married last year, do you think his chances of speaking without an accent would have improved? Not sure what having married children has to do with learning a language.

[fengyixiao]

Totally disagree! Never bought into the "can't teach an old dog new tricks" BS.

So if that old guy's daughter hadn't married last year, do you think his chances of speaking without an accent would have improved? Not sure what having married children has to do with learning a language.

Truth is truth,if you agree or not.

I am not tell he has a married children,i mean when he came to china the first time,he is more than 36 years old.(He is more than 50 today!)

While others who learn chinese are almost students.

[Hofmann]

Truth is truth,if you agree or not.

Holy shit, dude.

Shi Tong, I disagree. Once in a while you might get a genius or a moron, but for most people (like more than 99%), I think there's no such thing as talent.

[jbradfor]

Hofmann , I disagree

I wasn't trying to say that innate ability is the determining factor in getting a good accent (or learning new characters, or being able to play the piano, or being a good salesperson, or whatever). But I do think that innate ability determines, for a given level of effort, how quickly one progresses.

As an example, when I started learning, a friend of mine were taking the same class as I was. We both started from zero, both took the exact same class, both studied about the same amount. He picked up an amazing accent and conversation ability very quickly, but had trouble with characters. I, in contrast, really struggled with tones and listening comprehension, but characters never really caused me any real grief.

Now that is not to say that he never learned to read well (he did), or I can never get a good accent (still working on that....). All I'm saying is that innate ability does affect how quickly one progresses. And, perhaps, whether one ever becomes excellent at something, or just very good.

[Hofmann]

As an example, when I started learning, a friend of mine were taking the same class as I was. We both started from zero, both took the exact same class, both studied about the same amount. He picked up an amazing accent and conversation ability very quickly, but had trouble with characters. I, in contrast, really struggled with tones and listening comprehension, but characters never really caused me any real grief.

But note that you and your friend were not born right before you took the class. Your pasts are different, so what has become of you is different.

[jbradfor]

Ah. So your argument is that (most) everyone is born with equal ability, but people gain different skills during their lifetime? I don't agree with that either, but that's harder to prove.... I agree that people gain different skills, but I don't think people are born with equal ability, it's both.

[dumdumdum]

I don't know -- have you hung out with a lot of Chinese young people? There's a pretty standard way of speaking that remains consistent from province to province, at least among the middle class. (Similar to how in the US the only people who speak with markedly non-standard accents are usually from low socioeconomic backgrounds.) You do get tones and pronunciations that are not quite standard from time to time -- I've heard things like biǎotí and jiàngjun and zhòngzi (for zòngzi) before, and see this -- but I find that what young Chinese people say is almost always in line with the standard textbook pronunciations.

15yrs in china studying and working, i think i do hang out a bit with chinese to form such an opinion. yes young ppl do have common vocabs thanks to the internet and other modern mass media technologies. but they dont necessarily speak in the same accent/pronouciations. a guy from anhui and a guy from he'nan would sound different, guys from the south dont differentiate 'n-' and 'l-', so 'milk' becomes 'liulai' instead of 'niunai'. shanghainese definitely speak in a different manner from beijingers.

i think some theories in psychology did state that most ppl cant learn new accents after puberty cos as ppl get matured they formed a self-identity, example which ethnicity, nation, culture, or even religious group they belonged to. most would then subconsciously reject what they considered as 'alien'. it's actually not age but maturity that sets the barrier. more of a psycho thingy than physical age. older peeps who understand the mechanism would be able to cross over the line and pick up a new accent.

[renzhe]

Oh no, a nature vs. nurture argument...

Frankly, I think that this topic is often simplified to the point of becoming a caricature. I don't think that there is THE "talent" for "languages" which you either have or don't. Language acquisition and skills depend on a huge number of influences, and many people are talented in some aspects of it, and not talented for others.

Parts of this are inborn, and parts are acquired. Then there is the ability to compensate for a lack of talent through hard work. Each person is different and each person learns differently and needs to concentrate on different things in order to get the best results.

When it comes to acquiring an accent, I do think that the experience growing up plays a role in your accent in later life. People who grew up with several languages tend to pick new ones up more easily. There is only a limited number of sounds human languages produce (see IPA). The more different sounds you are exposed to, the easier you will find it to acquire new ones.

I don't think that this is a case of "children learn through a magical mystic power which disappears together with baby teeth", but a case of "if you've played tennis for 10 years, you'll find it easier to learn squash". Just like any other skill, pronunciation is something that is trained daily. After many years of doing something, your brain and body get used to doing it so much that they end up doing it even if you try something else.

So age does play a role, IMHO, but indirectly. People get set in their ways, while children don't have habits to break, or the fear of failing. I think that the biological factor exists, but is not really that important. Adults also make better learners than children in important ways.

[jbradfor]

In thinking about this later, I wasn't trying to start nature vs nurture. My use of "innate ability" was probably a mistake, sorry to get this thread off-track. I should have said "current talent" instead, which includes both innate ability and what one has learned. I still would argue strongly that the rate at which one can learn various aspects of a language, including getting a native accent, or learning most any other skill, is strongly affected by ones "current talent".

[roddy]

So assume someone who has no particular language learning experience, no innate or learned talents with accents or music, and perhaps even . . . God help him . . . 36 years old. What can this poor sod do to sound as native as possible?

I suspect the major thing is intonation - lots of shadowing of phrases and sentences would probably be valuable, alongside the usual work on other aspects of pronunciation. That's something that's almost always missing from courses and teaching.

[Don_Horhe]

When it comes to acquiring an accent, I do think that the experience growing up plays a role in your accent in later life. People who grew up with several languages tend to pick new ones up more easily. There is only a limited number of sounds human languages produce (see IPA). The more different sounds you are exposed to, the easier you will find it to acquire new ones.

I think this pretty much hit the nail on the head. Children who are exposed to different languages do seem to be able to pick up new ones with less effort. The more languages, the more phones one can produce. The more phones one can produce, the better "trained" his speech and hearing organs are, and this makes it easier to produce new ones.