How To 'acquire' A Native Like Accent?

[Glenn]

What about kids who acquire all the phones of their native language well, and those who don't? My sister and at least one cousin had to go to speech therapy to straighten out things like "fink" for "think" and "thit" for "sit". Although, it may have been more of a phonological issue, come to think of it. But either way, there's something going on there that isn't nurture, I'd wager (despite not being able to set up the exact same circumstances for everyone... but I grew up hearing pretty much the same things my sister did, I'd say, and so did the rest of my brothers). I'm not sure this totally falls under the talent/no talent thing, but it's a similar at the least, wouldn't you (anyone) say?

[aristotle1990]

a guy from anhui and a guy from he'nan would sound different, guys from the south dont differentiate 'n-' and 'l-', so 'milk' becomes 'liulai' instead of 'niunai'. shanghainese definitely speak in a different manner from beijingers.

I know differences exist, of course, but generally only uneducated people speak with such shibboleths. College students, not so much. (Apart from a mild North-South accent difference, though even that is not consistent. I've met plently of southerners [Jiangxi, Zhejiang, even Guangdong] who speak Mandarin indistinguishable from that of a northerner.)

[Guest realmayo]

Has anyone heard the girl who does most of the Chinesepod podcasts, Jenny Zhu? Her Chinese always sounded fairly normal to me but I remember reading some people saying that she was *obviously* a southerner....

[anonymoose]

Has anyone heard the girl who does most of the Chinesepod podcasts, Jenny Zhu? Her Chinese always sounded fairly normal to me but I remember reading some people saying that she was *obviously* a southerner....

I think to a lot of people it's only "obvious" after they know where the person comes from.

I've listened to Jenny, and I think her accent is standard enough. I'd be surprised if there's any learner that could emulate it closely enough to be considered to have a Shanghai accent rather than a laowai accent.

[Guest realmayo]

In fact now I come to think of it, a characteristically "northern" accent would be marginally non-standard, right?

[xiaocai]

Has anyone heard the girl who does most of the Chinesepod podcasts, Jenny Zhu? Her Chinese always sounded fairly normal to me but I remember reading some people saying that she was *obviously* a southerner....

She does have a southern accent, can't say it is very obvious, but you can still sort of tell that where she could be from if you listen carefully. ;)

In fact now I come to think of it, a characteristically "northern" accent would be marginally non-standard, right?

Yes, I think so. And some northern accents are so strong that they don't just sound "marginally" non-standard.

[Shi Tong]

My point wasn't that if you have telent you will always be good, and that if you dont, you will always be bad. My point was that talent does play an important part of an ability to learn certain things.

For example-- I learned French when I was a kid, and was ALWAYS bad at it.. though the only good thing I could do was pronunciation and accent. I was really diabolical at the grammar and never could remember abstract elements of the languages (like why there's a le instead of a la in some cases and the strange Romanisation system and alphabet which make spelling and pronunciation very strange to me).

I started learning Chinese when I was 23.. but because I had the right ear for it I could learn the sounds easily, I could understand the grammar, and the abstract element of the language (the tones) made total sense to me (because it was a listening ability to learn, not a mental arithmatic type of thing). I also find the writing has an element of logic, which is something I can learn- when there is lack of logic (like in French and the Romanised system which makes no sense to me), I can't learn it.

If you put in a lot of work, I'm sure anyone can be capable of almost anything- and I would say that someone who has a little talent in Chinese can probably learn Mandarin to whatever level they wish. But it does make it easier if you DO have a talent, IMO.

In contrast, I would say that there is no such thing as a "general ability to learn languages", because some I love and some I hate.. and I have always found Fu-jianese really difficult too (I can only speak a tiny bit) dispite "talent"...

[bob2222]

To be honest, I think when people start talking about talent they don't really have an idea what they are really talking about. What the hell is talent? I would say that it something that is innate, with you from birth and can't possibly be learnt. The above poster points out that he had a good ear, a 'talent' for picking up the sounds, how can you convincingly argue that that is something that has been with you from birth, rather than something that you have learnt along the way?

I don't know about your situation, but I also learned French when I was younger, and probably faired much worse than you did, not managing to pick up much more than 'Hello' and 'Goodbye'. By coincidence I also started learning Chinese when I was 23, and everyone tells me I've picked it up quickly. Do I also have this special hearing 'talent' as you? Do people with this 'talent' all have a hard time with learning French? Hmmmm.....

I would argue that that a number of very important factors are being ignored here, and I'll only mention the one which I think is most important; motivation. Truth is, at that time, I couldn't care less if I learned French or not, I was forced into a class once a week for two years at school and did as little of the homework as I could get any with. Chinese on the other hand, I WANTED to learn, I was desperate for it. There were nights when I couldn't sleep because I was thinking about Hanzi, sentence patterns or whatever (wasn't just me right????). I can't see anywhere where talent plays a part. You say as much yourself, some languages you love and others not so much, I guess you would argue that that is part of 'talent', we are born to like some things and not others. I would argue that I like Chinese more because of the associations it had with cool things like Kung-fu and movies , rather than being born with the Chinese 'gene'.

And now, if I went back to French, would it be the same? I think it would depend if I really wanted to invest the time or not. But if the desire was there, I've no doubt I would progress through it as fast, if not faster (since now I have developed experience in learning a foreign language) than Chinese.

As for kids who require speech therapy, despite having siblings who didn't experience any problems, again, their can be many reason for this. For example, teeth play a very important part in forming sounds, loose some of the front ones at the wrong time and that can have a great effect on the way that child pronounces certain words, and possibly result in the development of a speech impediment. And there's plenty of other possibilities, all much more convincing than, 'oh, this child was born like that, lacks the talent to speak' (surely if that was the case then 'disability' is a more appropriate term, no?).

I can see why people like to point to talent to explain things like language learning, ability in sports, etc. it's an convenient explanation. Often, its not easy to see all the factors that have led to the result, so its easier just make something up and believe that is the answer, responsible for everything. It's like if you fire a gun at someone unfamiliar with the technology might think,' whoa, that's some impressive magic!'

[Shi Tong]

bob2222--

Suggesting that I attribute everything to talent is rather amazing, since all I said was that I thought talent played an important part in learning something.

Can you pick up a brush and paint a portrait? Do you think you can be taught such a thing, or do you think that artists (of immense talent) are basically "well taught".

Of course, everything requires hard work, as I explained above, but some things are very hard to learn, to the point that they discourage and weary the learner to a point where they will lose motivation to learn.

As I also mentioned, I tried to learn fu-jianhua, which I incidently think is "much cooler" than Mandarin and I have "just as much motivation" to learn it, since my wife is bilingual, and most people in Taiwan are bilingual in this way.

I found it impossible to learn- 8 tones- sounds which I find very hard to grasp with my ear- and no written equivalent (appart from Chinese characters which do not always logically relate to the fujianese equivalent), make it something which I think personally I cant learn. Similar to the probalems I had with French (illogical Romanisation system, tough grammar and strange hard to grasp soft sounds).

Also, when I first started learning, I basically went to get the visa to stay in Taiwan for 3 months. There was "no" motivation to learn the language because it was only to see my (then) girlfriend. It was coincidental that I happened to be good at Chinese.

And I find it very hard to believe that anyone can do anything given "time and practice"-- this is why we as children are chosen for different subjects; because we have talent at certain things, and because of this talent we can progress at them quicker than others. Are you saying that someone who is pretty awful at maths could actually be briliant at it, just because of the way they are taught?, or that the reason that those others who are good at it, it's because they were not being lazy?

[Guest realmayo]

To be honest, I think when people start talking about talent they don't really have an idea what they are really talking about. What the hell is talent? I would say that it something that is innate, with you from birth and can't possibly be learnt.

So a talented chef is someone who was born able to cook really well? Without learning anything?

[pancake]

Can every mathematician become a Gauss? Can every chef become a Ferran Adrià? Can every adult Chinese learner become a 大山? Is being 努力 really all it takes to reach the highest levels of achievement in any particular field? Denying the existence of talent seems extraordinarily silly to me.

[Glenn]

As for kids who require speech therapy, despite having siblings who didn't experience any problems, again, their can be many reason for this. For example, teeth play a very important part in forming sounds, loose some of the front ones at the wrong time and that can have a great effect on the way that child pronounces certain words, and possibly result in the development of a speech impediment. And there's plenty of other possibilities, all much more convincing than, 'oh, this child was born like that, lacks the talent to speak' (surely if that was the case then 'disability' is a more appropriate term, no?).

Er... I suppose I should clarify, since it seems my wording wasn't entirely clear. I meant that it seems there was something keeping my sister and cousin from advancing as quickly and normally as everyone else. They speak perfectly fine now. I didn't mean they didn't have the talent to speak, as they were doing it pretty well aside from a few sounds they couldn't make or put in the wrong places (I don't remember that clearly exactly what the issues were). That points to work overriding talent, and I never meant to argue that point. I did wonder why it would be that they had those problems, and thought maybe they weren't as good as connecting sounds to mouth positions naturally, and had to be taught, but the point about tooth development is a good one, and I had never considered it before.

[renzhe]

Can every mathematician become a Gauss? Can every chef become a Ferran Adrià? Can every adult Chinese learner become a 大山? Is being 努力 really all it takes to reach the highest levels of achievement in any particular field? Denying the existence of talent seems extraordinarily silly to me.

But you don't have to be a Gauss or Dashan, both of which were extremely hard workers.

Talent is important, but it's too often used as a cheap excuse. If you don't have talent, work harder. You won't be Gauss or Segovia or Zidane, but chances are that you will become really, scarily good. If you look just one small step below the summit occupied by extraordinarily talented indviduals, you will see a large field where plenty of rather average people got through hard work and perseverance.

How did that saying go... success is 1% inspiration and 99% transpiration.

[Glenn]

Although I've read that Edison said that the reporter who quoted him turned the meaning he was trying to convey around. What he meant was that without that inspiration, all the perspiration in the world doesn't matter. Tesla actually took the reporter's version of it and made fun of Edison for having said what the reporter said he said, even though it wasn't what Edison meant. In the end, the two of them actually agreed on something.

[aristotle1990]

Can every mathematician become a Gauss? Can every chef become a Ferran Adrià? Can every adult Chinese learner become a 大山? Is being 努力 really all it takes to reach the highest levels of achievement in any particular field? Denying the existence of talent seems extraordinarily silly to me.

Actually, a common misperception about 大山 is that he is fantastically talented. He is indeed talented, but not extraordinarily so, certainly not at the level of someone like Gauss. Watch his second performance ever on Chinese TV, 夜归 -- after four years (presumably) of studying Chinese in college as a major and several more months in China at 北大, his Chinese is decent, but it's nothing compared to what it is now -- even the announcer calls it 洋腔十足.

This is not to put 大山 down -- in fact, quite the reverse. Two years later, in 1990, he did a fantastic skit with 姜昆 and 唐杰忠-- here, his Chinese is indeed quite impressive. It goes to show that you don't need to have amazing talent to have amazing Chinese. (Though it certainly helps.)

[Shi Tong]

Indeed.

I think most of us agree that being good at something is somewhere between being talented and hard working.

I personally believe that sometimes you just cant get rid of an accent- talented, untalented, hard working or not.

And I think this is a good thing because if you believe that you can work out an accent, then you're really suggesting that those who simply cannot shake an accent are not working hard enough to do so.. I'm lucky in that I dont really have an "English accent" at all, and within about 2 weeks of learning Chinese I was able to sound "native" with some small phrases and words. Of course, I have worked on everything a lot since then, and improved because of it, but without that beginning talent, I dont think I could have gone forward.

Maybe this was because "somewhere" early on I learned something that would give me that "key" to learning Chinese, and this was when I was a kid.. but that's like saying a literary genius is born because they learned to read when they were a kid (like everyone else)..

So regardless, I dont know where that talent came from, and I dont really care, but I firmly believe that talent certainly plays an important part in anything.

[Gleaves]

Discussions on talent always remind me of this Michael Jordan commercial (

, youku). The raw materials help, but hard work is king. At least I hope that's true, because my Chinese talent is seriously lacking.

[Shi Tong]

Yeah, but put it this way. I spent all of yesterday with my wife's friend and her boyfriend (that's my wife's friends boyfriend, not my wife's boyfriend!), and he has been learning to speak some Chinese. While I think he can memorise certain sounds and is capable of some useful sentances, his tones are really off, most of the time.

This doesn't mean to say he cant improve, but what can we put it down to if he cant pronounce tones (very well yet) and I can/ could with very little learning?

I doubt that he will ever manage to acheive a "native like accent", but then I dont think many people will or can.. but again, I dont think this is a bad thing- I think you either CAN do that accent, or you CANT.. doesn't mean you're not hard working enough or stupid, it just means you dont have that "thing".. whatever you want to call it- talent or ability or whatever.

[calibre2001]

Personally I find language acquisition more like a mimicking process i.e. how much you can talk or write like them. Perhaps that's how those with 'talent' see it.

On a side note I see alot of fluent laowais learning chinese in Taiwan especially on TV shows. I get the impression that southern mandarin is easier to pick up and easier to pick up the accent. An analogy would be whether it's easier to pick up an American or British accent for English learners. It seems to me that the former is easier

[Hofmann]

Perhaps I need to clarify my position a bit. I meant almost all people are conceived pretty much the same. That is what I call nature. Everything that happens after their genetic code is set in stone (or histones...Get it? Histones?) is nurture. It's not enough to say that person A and person B studied under the same conditions and got different results, and therefore are differently talented. You have to account for their history all the way from when they were conceived. Factors that can influence one's ability to learn languages include their family culture, the linguistic variety of their environment, their friends, their friends' languages and culture, their school's environment and culture, the music they listen to, whether or not they take music lessons, etc. That one person may be better than another at learning tonal languages given the same learning environment may be attributed to simply that this person listened to someone speak Chinese when he was little.