端午节 Or Dragon Boat Festival

[xianhua]

Did you celebrate the Dragon boat Fesitval today? According to my converstion chart, today is the 5th day of the fifth month, and so it would ordinarily be celebrated. However, my in-laws inform me that the 15th day of the 5th month is when the bigger Dragon Boat celebration takes place in their town. Is this possibly just a regional thing, or has anyone else heard of further celebrations on the 15th day of the 5th month?

Just thinking about this, there is a full moon on the 15th day of the 5th month so I wonder if this is the reason for the delayed celebration? I guess you'd get more light for your money if you step out onto a boat after dark then.

[gougou]

As the Chinese calendar is lunar, the full moon is always on the 15th. If they wanted to celebrate at full moon, they'd just have moved the festival there.

I just came back from Guizhou, which has a sizable Miao minority (and Gai, in one of the villages I stayed at). They also told me that this was only the small festival, and that the big one was ten days later (unfortunately, they had already prepared their huge zongzi for the small one and forced me to eat like four a day...). Apparently the big one is a pretty big deal in Miao culture.

In Beijing, I had never heard of a big dragon boat festival before.

[dumdumdum]

if i'm not wrong, dragon boat festival has been around for a long time, and was possibly on the 15th of the 5th month since ages. it just happened that one famous person 屈原 during the 'warring state era' commited suicide after seeing his beloved state falling apart, then the chinese remembered him on the 5th day of the 5th month, the day he drowned himself, and made it 端午 festival. people threw rice dumplings into the rivers during dragon boat races so that the fishes wont disturb his body and soul.

the minority groups knew nothing about him and continued celebrating on the 15th. the boat festival actually came before the commemoration of 屈原.

[jbradfor]

Why is 端午节 called 端午节? I had assumed that 端 and 午 refer to the 5th. However, MDBG gives as a meaning for 午 "5th solar month (6th June-6th July)", while this holiday is on the 4th lunar month [LATER EDIT: I mean 5th lunar month], and doesn't say anything related for 端.

[xianhua]

while this holiday is on the 4th lunar month

Where did this information come from? In this year so far:

1st lunar month began on 14th Feb (Gregorian)

2nd lunar month began on 16th March

3rd lunar month began on 14th April

4th lunar month began on 14th May

5th lunar month began on 12th June

The 5th day of of the fifth month therefore fell on the 16h June (which matches the date on the first post above).

[dumdumdum]

the lunar calander (chinese uses a lunar-solar mixed calander actually, the one derived from western missionaries and ming-dynasty astrologists) is not exactly in-line with the gregorian calander. the typical chinese yr is about 360 days so every 3 yrs there'll be a leap month, or 7 leap month every 19 yrs. last year the leap month was between the 5th and 6th lunar month, so 端午 was on the 28th of may and 27th of june, traditionally the first one is taken as the proper festive day.

[jbradfor]

@xianhua, sorry, that was a typo, meant to say 5th lunar month.

I don't think either of you answered my question. Where does the name 端午 come from?

[SiMaKe]

Don't know if this answers the question or not but it shed some additional light on my understanding of this festival:

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia....Duanwu_Festival

"The Duanwu Festival is believed to have originated in ancient China. A number of theories exist about its origins as a number of folk traditions and explanatory myths are connected to its observance. Today the best known of these relates to the suicide in 278 BCE of Qu Yuan, poet and statesman of the Chu kingdom during the Warring States period."

Further reading seems to confirm that the key event here is the date "double fifth" (5th day of 5th month of lunar year) and not the Dragon Boat per se. So we have an auspicious event with, as these things go, folk tales springing up around them.

"The moon is considered to be at its strongest around the time of summer solstice ("mid-summer" in traditional Japan, but "beginning" of summer elsewhere) when the daylight in the northern hemisphere is the longest. The sun (yang), like the dragon (long), traditionally represents masculine energy, whereas the moon (yue), like the phoenix (or firebird, fenghuang), traditionally represents feminine energy. Summer solstice is considered the peak annual moment of male energy while the winter solstice, the longest night of the year, represents the peak annual moment of feminine energy. The masculine image of the dragon is thus naturally associated with Duanwu."

端午 may just emphasize the "end of the 5th" and, with typical Chinese economy of language, one 午 is enough to convey the message.

As for MDGB, my conclusion is that the reference to "solar" is just an error.

[jbradfor]

As for MDGB, my conclusion is that the reference to "solar" is just an error.

That was my first thought as well, however, for each of the 12 earthly branches, they have it refer to the solar month. So I wouldn't think they would get every one wrong.

But it is strange for a Chinese term to refer to the solar month. And checking wikipedia shows that these refer to the lunar month.

Anyone disagree that MDBG has it wrong? If not, I'll submit the 12 corrections.

But I'm still further confused. MDBG has the entry for 午 in part as "5th solar month (6th June-6th July)". Why the "6th June-6th July" part? Isn't the 5th month May? And why doesn't the 5th month start May 1? Could "6th June-6th July" be the Gregorian calendar dates for the 5th lunar month in some year? If so, the MDBG entry seems strange to me.

[SiMaKe]

But I'm still further confused. MDBG has the entry for 午 in part as "5th solar month (6th June-6th July)". Why the "6th June-6th July" part? Isn't the 5th month May? And why doesn't the 5th month start May 1? Could "6th June-6th July" be the Gregorian calendar dates for the 5th lunar month in some year? If so, the MDBG entry seems strange to me.

If the "new year" begins around the end of January (春节) (+/-), then the 5th "month" would be around the month of June so 6/6 to 6/7 seems about right for a "lunar May". I suspect "6/6-7/6" is meant to be an approximation not an exact (Gregorian) date because the lunar and solar calendars don't move in lock step. Maybe an average or the "May" for some particular year so that the reader can have some reference point in their own coordinate system.

MDBG is great at a lot of things but full explanations is not one of them. (Nor does it need to be.)

Hope I didn't miss your point.

[dumdumdum]

the calander go according to season change so beginning of spring is the beginning of new year. the gregorian calendar measure the time between equinox so it has nothing to do with seasons. january happens to be the middle of 2 euinoxes and the coldest part of winter. the chinese lunar calander is usually a month behind the gregorian if you count by numerical order (1st mth, 2nd mth, 3rd mth...), when winter is ending and spring coming. other lunar calanders (like those used by muslims) would have other deviation, depending on when they set their new year's day.

the chinese had different new year's day in the past too. it was once set on 冬至 (winter solstice, around 22-25 dec), the day where night time is longest and daytime shortest. this was regarded as the beginning of 阳气, cos daylight begins to get longer. coincidentally in ancient rome this was the birthday of apollo the sun god, one of the most important gods in roman mythology, and later on, possibly copied by early christians as christmas day. this is why the chinese eat rice dumplings on winter solstice and referred it as a 'small year'. this is also the reason why old chinese folks sometimes tell youngsters they are a year older after eating dumplings on winter solstice. but after qin dynasty the proper year was set to begin with the coming of spring.

the 12 earthy branches doesnt really state solar or lunar, just a numbering system to fit which ever system the govt use.

according to chinese lore, 端 would mean 'proper', 午 = 五 = five. the fifth day of the fifth month was also written as 五月单五，or literally 'fifth month single five'. 单五 was a phonetic change of 端午. the reason why 午 = five, is like january is some times called 'wolf month' in roman folklore or maybe 'garnet month' according to its birth stone. most ethnic groups have special names for every month and for the chinese, the other name for the 5th lunar month happens to be '午', and it happens to be phonetically identical with the chinese number 5.

as for why '5' or '5th' is 'proper', well, from 1-9 (ancient people didnt have the idea of '0'), 5 happens to be in the middle. and therefore in chinese traditions 5 is a very auspicious and important number. the emperor was addressed as '九五之尊' cos '9' is the biggest and '5' is the most centered. then the chinese have the 5 tastes, 5 sounds, 5 directions, 5 grains, 5 desires and 5 everything.

[jbradfor]

@ SiMaKe, yeah, that was exactly my point.

Calling 午 the "5th solar month (6th June-6th July)" seems an error to me. Calling 午 the "5th lunar month (corresponding on average to 6th June-6th July on the Gregorian calendar)" seems technically correct, but wordy. Calling 午 the "5th lunar month" seems best to me, as I would assume everyone using MDBG would know what the lunar calendar is, and, if they don't, as you said, MDBG is great at a lot of things but full explanations is not one of them. (Nor does it need to be.)

But I STILL don't know why 端午 is called 端午. I think I'm OK now that 午 means the 5th lunar month, but why does 端 mean the 5th (or the 15th) day?

[jbradfor]

@dumdumdum, thanks for the information on the year starting on the Winter solstice. [bTW, the winter solstice is on Dec 20-23, typically Dec 21-22, it's never as late as the 25th.]

However, I'm still confused. The winter solstice is a purely solar event. If one has a lunar calendar (in which the first of the month always corresponds to a certain phase of the moon), how can one start the year (and a presume a month) based on a solar event? Unless one does not start the first month with day 1? Or each year, the phase of the moon corresponding to the first of the month changes?

the 12 earthy branches doesnt really state solar or lunar, just a numbering system to fit which ever system the govt use.

Do people in China ever use the 12 earthy branches to refer to the Gregorian month?

[SiMaKe]

More fuel for thought (or fire?).:wacko:

...The winter solstice is a purely solar event. If one has a lunar calendar..., how can one start the year ... based on a solar event?

Because the Chinese calendar is apparently not just a lunar calendar but rather one based on both solar and lunar events. From Wikipedia:

"The Chinese calendar is a lunisolar calendar, incorporating elements of a lunar calendar with those of a solar calendar."

But I STILL don't know why 端午 is called 端午.

Because it just is! :lol:

[jbradfor]

Because the Chinese calendar is apparently not just a lunar calendar but rather one based on both solar and lunar events.

Correct. Both the Chinese and Jewish are strictly speaking lunar-solar, while the Islamic calendar is truly lunar. [EDIT: I said solar previously, hence dumdumdum's comment below. Why can't I proofread correctly??]

All that lunar-solar means is that the months are based on the moon cycles, while the the start of the year is based on the sun cycles. However, typically the lunar-solar calendars don't start the year on the exact solar event, but have a +/- 1 month "wiggle" to have the month always start at a certain phase of the moon.

[dumdumdum]

earlier western solar calenders werent that accurate. the roman 'julian calander' put winter solstice on the 25th of december and hence the birthday of apollo. on a side note, the christians were prosecuted in their earlier days so they took it as the day to celebrate christmas, while others celebrate apollo's birthday, to avoid detection. a simple fact would be jewish people dont herd their cattle after october. if the 3 sages asked for directions from a sheperd on the way meeting the new born lord, that wouldnt be mid-winter.

the chinese had used a lunar-solar system long time ago, but the present 'chinese calendar' was done in ming dynasty, with the help of western missionaries. it is a correction of the ancient one from pre-ming dynasty.

nope the chinese never used the 12 earthly branches for gregorian calender. if any chinese told you that, he's mis-informed. on another side note, the han chinese arent the first people to use the 12 animals to represent the years. other nomadic tribes had it earlier. but the 12 earthly branches were purely han-chinese creation. the 12 animals came later, probably during the north and south dynasty.

as explained, between numbers 1 to 9, 5 is in the middle, so naturally 端, the one in the center, or proper, not left not right, not too much not too little. if you want to dwell into it, take a look at the i'ching:

4 9 2

3 5 7

8 1 6

this is the basic arrangement for the 8 trigrams (八卦), with 5 in the middle as the most 'proper', and each side adding up to 15, vertical, horizontal or diagonal. so anytime you hit 5, it is inherently 'proper' and thus 端午（center/fifth day of the month of 午）.

and islamic calendar is lunar, not solar.

add a little on the 12 earthly branches. if we count them 午 is no.7 so why does it represent the 5th lunar month? see:

dec jan feb mar apr may jun jul aug sep oct nov

子 丑 寅 卯 辰 巳 午 未 申 酉 戌 亥, thats no.7.

一 二 三 四 五 六 七。。。（winter solstice lunar calendar）

戌 亥 子 丑 寅 卯 辰 巳 午 未 申 酉 戌 亥

、 、 一 二 三 四 五。。。（present chinese lunar calander）

that is becos we are now using first lunar month(spring) as chinese new year. in ancient time people once used winter solstice as new year. so first month 子 was in december instead of febuary, and 7th lunar month 午 in ancient winter solostice calender actually correspond to 5th lunar month in present lunar calendar. but the name 端午 was passed down from ancient times so no point changing it to 端辰 after the govt change the calander sequence. it remained as 端午.