Novice Looking For Help With Pitch & Tones

[Lateksi]

Hi everyone,

A complete beginner here; started the Michel Thomas Chinese audio course yesterday. I've listened through the first CD so far, and feel like I've grasped its contents pretty well. (you know, "wo shi mei guo ren" and all that, heh). My problem are the tones. More specifically I feel like I don't / can't express them clearly enough, that is, when I try to repeat the things on the tape I feel the pitch changes in my voice are always significantly smaller and subtler than those I hear on the tape. I have a pretty monotonous voice by nature so that probably has something to do with it. My throat is a bit sore from all the pitching as well, which just feels pretty unnatural and difficult to me overall.

Now due to lack of confidence and experience, I'm not sure if it's all just in my head (and it seems pretty likely that the tones would be exaggerated in such a beginner course anyway) or if it could actually pose a problem by people not understanding me or something. Has anyone here had any similar issues, and how did you overcome them? I think having a tutor would help but it might be too early for it? Any help would be appreciated!

Also a big thanks to all the posters and the staff of this site - I've only been skimming through the forums for a day or so yet have received a lot of good ideas on how to proceed with my studies!

[Hofmann]

Are you trying to use the same range as the speakers in the audio course? If it's not the same as your own range, damage to your vocal folds is expected. Mandarin tones seem to have a range of about a fifth or a minor sixth. Try to keep that interval inside your tessitura.

[sebhk]

When speaking at normal speed, many Chinese native speakers don't pronounce the tones very clearly. It is important to remember that tones are not absolute, but relative to your own voice. So once you pronounce something with a little bit higher pitch, you have the first tone etc. The only way to be sure that you getting the tones right, is to have someone else (native speaker if possible) listening to you.

[Glenn]

Has anyone here had any similar issues, and how did you overcome them?

Oh yes. Yes I have. I don't think I've necessarily gotten in figured out yet, but I think it's a bit better, at least. I still don't get how it sounds like Chinese people get away with it.

[renzhe]

Like people say, contour and relative pitch difference are important.

But many people find that their tones are understated. Even people who know the right tone, and pronounce it, often do so in a "compressed" way.

What helps is repeating the sentences and words after native speakers exactly the way they are spoken (after adjusting it to fit in your vocal range, of course!) Another thing that helps if you know the right tones but don't pronounce them clearly is to exaggerate them for a while.

[Lateksi]

Thanks for all the replies. After a good night's sleep I now realise that the topic at hand probably shouldn't be a cause of concern for me at this point (after all, it's only been a few days since I started!) but I like to be aware of potential issues that might cause bigger problems down the road.

Hofmann and sebhk: I guess part of the problem is that I haven't really found a range for speaking Mandarin yet (I usually speak quite monotonously like I mentioned and I'm definitely not a singer so it's all new territory for me), so it's probable I'm trying to mimic the tonal range of the speakers in the audio course as well. I'll try to be more conscious of it for now.

It helps to know that the tonal range is about a fifth, I think some of the audio makes it seem like it's a full octave or something! I'm sure the reason for this is the same as with stretching the syllables and words, i.e. making everything clearer and more emphasised for a newcomer, but at this point it's pretty hard to know how things "really" sound like when they're not being exaggerated. Maybe I should try listening to some native chinese just so I can get an idea of it, even though I definitely won't understand a single word yet

Glenn: I hadn't even noticed that whole subforum thanks for that, an enlightening thread, and it's comforting to know I'm not the only one, heh.

renzhe, I'll definitely try your suggestions once I get more comfortable with the very basics, thanks!

[Lateksi]

I've attached a short MP3 (consisting of pretty much everything I know so far, ha!) of my speech, basically just saying a few words really slow as to emphasize the tones - if anyone bothered to check it out and comment on my tones, I'd be grateful.

Also is there a post or something about this forum's rules/etiquette (e.g. replying to old threads, starting new threads, etc) - I looked around a bit but didn't find anything and I don't want to be a nuisance ;)

Sound 6.mp3

[roddy]

Oh, just post away - in the unlikely event you do anything annoying we'll have a quiet word before sending the men with sticks round. Welcome!

[Shi Tong]

Lateksi.

Ironically, (maybe), I think your tones are pretty good-- especially for a beginner!! Watch out a little for raising the tones of the 3rds too much at the ends, since 3rd tones when placed between other tones "always" come out as low pitched ones without a raise.

(some people disagree with the lack of raise at the ends of the 3rd tones, but in my experience there is a lot of non raising of the 3rd tone).

Keep working, and try your best to remember which tones relate to which words!!

[Davis Lee]

Not bad at all. Nevertheless, I have come across a web link for evaluating Mandarin tones: http://chinesepod.com/tools/addons/tone

Hope helps. All the best, Dave.

[Chinadoog]

when you pronounce 'shi' it sounds more like she or xi than shi. hehe. there should be more of an 'R' sound on the end. like when you say the word 'shirt' in english but without the T on the end.

john from chinesepod gives some excellent advice on his website regarding pronunciation. check it out yo!

http://www.sinosplice.com/learn-chinese/pronunciation-of-mandarin-chinese/4

[renzhe]

when you pronounce 'shi' it sounds more like she or xi than shi. hehe. there should be more of an 'R' sound on the end. like when you say the word 'shirt' in english but without the T on the end.

This r-colouring is typical for northern accents, but not a part of the standard (other than in some cases where erhua is a part of the standard, such as 事儿).