how to pronounce the "a" in the sequence üan

[Alchemist]

I know that the "a" in the Pinyin sequence "ian" is really pronounced "e", so for example 铅 is pronounced qien even though the correct pinyin is "qian"... no problems about this...

What gives me some trouble is the pronunciation of the "a" in the sequence "üan". The Chinese grammars I have all say that the "a" in that sequence is pronounced like the English "a" in "father", but I have tapes of Chinese speakers that seem to contradict my books. For example it seems to me that some speakers pronounce the word 院 as "üen" (where the "e" sounds like the English "e" in "set"), and not "üan".

The program Wenlin gets me even more confused... In that program, you can hear every character pronounced either by a woman or by a man. Well, it seems that the woman always pronounces those "a"'s as my books say, yet the man always pronounces them as the "e" in "set"!

So, what's the correct way...?

[Quest]

I dont remember how I learned it, but I say words like 远，院，全，权 (y & q) with the uen sound, and words like 软，窜 with the uan sound. However, I am also aware of people using uan where I would have used uen. I guess it's like 谁 shei/shui. There's probably some dialectal influences, but if you speak your version right, both are acceptable.

[xiaomawang]

The 'üan' like 'ian' is one of the compound finals. So you should read it like 'üen' though there is no that final. Don't try to relate the original 'a' here.

And be careful when you read the PinYin. 'ü' will be written as 'u' when it does not follow the initial 'l' and 'n'. So 'yuan' 原/院/元 actually is a 'üan' which is adding 'y' in front of it. And 'luan' 亂, 'guan' 關 are really a 'uan' adding 'l'/'g'.

These are rules stated in almost all Chinese dictionaries after 1958, after the standardization of Putonghua programme. Suggest your study the Initial & Final tables and the rules before you really get to read something. Or always check them out.

[heianderen]

这要看每个人的口音。 I think that depends on the accent of a particular zone in China. But the best way to learn pronunciation, is to "not pay" too much attention to pinyin if it use such or such letter, the best way is to choose what accent you want to imitate, and then listen and repeat it like a parrot. Forget about a e i o u, chinese vocal sounds are different from our mother languages, I can't emphasize it too much, if you pay too much attention to pinyin your will never going to get a native pronuntiation. The method explained befored worked for me. And the same applies to tones, imitate, don't look at the graph!!

[xiaomawang]

I think it's not really problem of 口音. PinYin is yes only the basis of Standard Mandarin which you just have to understand it. There is only few rules you have to understand and remember. That's ok if you only want to pick up a language by your own listening and talking. People will also understand 'tank you' as 'thank you' or '拿衣服 nayifu' as 'naive'. Make your own choice.

[heianderen]

What a want to say is of course it is important and useful to learn pinyin well, in order to use dictionaries, type characters in the computer, etc...

But, in my experience, when a was studying in the 国力马德里语言学院, a lot of classmates' pronunciation was prety good, because we fist started using zhuyin, that has nothing to do with our roman alphabet, but in the moment the teacher show us pinyin they started to read "bo" like a spanish "b" and so on...

Regarding the pronunciation de yuan and yan, if is not because accent differences, why some chinese say it with a more open vowel (like an "a") and others say it with a more closed vowel???

[xiaomawang]

Ok, at least we both agree PinYin is important basis. In fact, there're many different ways to learning new languages. But there're 6 special rules for read-/writing PinYin. One of them you should be familiar is 'zh' as a complete sound itself must write as 'zhi'. You won't argue 'zhi' read as 'zh' not a 'zh..i' right?

'Regarding the pronunciation de yuan and yan, if is not because accent differences, why some chinese say it with a more open vowel (like an "a") and others say it with a more closed vowel???'

What I could say is if sb reads 'yuan/yan' with 'a', he's not saying standard Putonghua, more exactly he's wrong. Will you agree the 'yan' of 'yuyan' (language) can be read as 'yen' or 'yan'? If you still say yes, then confirm with your teacher. Personally I see this as 錯誤 rather than 口音.

[Alchemist]

What I could say is if sb reads 'yuan/yan' with 'a', he's not saying standard Putonghua, more exactly he's wrong. Will you agree the 'yan' of 'yuyan' (language) can be read as 'yen' or 'yan'? If you still say yes, then confirm with your teacher. Personally I see this as 錯誤 rather than 口音.

I agree with you about the pronunciation of the final "ian": I have always heard it read as "yen" (the "yan" pronunciation would be 錯誤). But the final "üan" (yuan, juan, xuan, quan) is another story... because there are indeed native Chinese speakers who read that with an "a" sound just like the "a" in "father" (that's what the Wenlin girl does too). Are all those Chinese speakers wrong? Are both pronunciations acceptable? That's what I was trying to ask in the first place... :-)

[LiYuanXi]

I think both of them are correct. i think the "üan" sound is seldom used now. Unless you want to recite poetry or sing some chinese opera. Most people use the "üen" sound as i think it is much easier to prnounce. You dont have to open your mouth too wide. But if you want to recite poetry or sing traditional chinese songs, opera or ping tan, then you have to be 字正腔圆. In this case you will have to use the "üan" sound.

Conclusion : I think both pronounciation are correct just that people normally prefer to use the "üen" sound as it is easier to prnounce.

(just a personal opinion!)

[xiaomawang]

But the final "üan" (yuan, juan, xuan, quan) is another story... because there are indeed native Chinese speakers who read that with an "a" sound just like the "a" in "father" (that's what the Wenlin girl does too).

Maybe you could ask the native Chinese, should be native Mandarin, to read out these:

yuan2lai2, juan1kuan3, xuan1bu4, quan1li4

and you listen carefully. Or vice-versa, you read them with 'a', then ask them whether you're correct.

For the Wenlin girl, I'm interested in which words you actually heard?

[Alchemist]

For the Wenlin girl, I'm interested in which words you actually heard?

yuan2 原, juan1 娟, xuan1 宣, quan4 劝, yuan3 远, xuan2 璇, juan3 卷, etc.

She pronounces all of these words with a very clear "A" sound (as in "father").

[xiaomawang]

I see. Does she also read these (zuan4 鑽, suan4 算, luan4 亂, ruan3 軟)? These are really 'a'. There should have some difference. If there's no difference, hmm... I don't know, you can go ahead follow. Someday sb will correct you anyway.

'a' is always 'f(a)ther' yes; 'üan' 院 is always 'ü(e)n' no doubt.

[Alchemist]

I see. Does she also read these (zuan4 鑽, suan4 算, luan4 亂, ruan3 軟)?

I tried these on Wenlin. The woman makes no difference whatsoever between the "a" sound in these words and the "a" sound in the previous words. It's always the same clear A sound of the word "father".

'üan' 院 is always 'ü(e)n' no doubt.

I tried this as well. Same result as above...

The Wenlin man, on the other hand, pronounces it as you say.

[xiaomawang]

Well, relax then. That's why there are always these kind of forums for discussion. Both Wenlin girl and man are demostrators, but they say these in different ways. You may chose to follow one of them, I obviously suggest you follow the man's.

Just one situation you must sure whether you're reading a 'üan元' or 'uan晚'. Or one more suggest is you find in your city a real person, Mandarin teacher from Beijing or North-east China, and ask him to pronounce these for you. Shouldn't be difficult to find because there are many exchange teachers from BJ and NE China.

[heianderen]

Ok, at least we both agree PinYin is important basis. In fact, there're many different ways to learning new languages. But there're 6 special rules for read-/writing PinYin. One of them you should be familiar is 'zh' as a complete sound itself must write as 'zhi'. You won't argue 'zhi' read as 'zh' not a 'zh..i' right?

Maybe I've a gave a wrong impression. I agree that there are many different ways to learning new languages, I know several of them because a received training in this matter, and a have little experience teaching. I like to use a systematic way of learning. Pinyin rules are defined by convention, and you just must accept them. I know the rules, even when to use capital letters, etc. I only want to enphasize a more natural way to learn pronunciation. For example Pimsleur method I think that is excelent in this regard. I wouldn't teach pinyin to a new group until they got a basic mastery of pronuciation, I would use instead zhuyin if needed, furthermore zhuyin shows the phonetic structure clearly, for example you have different symbol for ü and u, you see the endings without "compresion", etc, I think that zhuyin is more useful to learn pronunciation, then swich to pinyin, because I don't like zhuyin. I don't want my students to see pinyin until that moment, because they are going to read it almost in spanish. I've seen some people using pimsleur method to learn mandarin, and their pronunciation was oustanding in only a week.

Regarding yuan/yan, your are chinese, and you surely know better than me.

This is only an opinion

[BeijingSlacker]

If you folks could upload the pronunciations somewhere, I could tell you which one is correct or more commonly used.