一本线、二本线

[Kenny同志]

诸位，一本线、二本线用英文怎么说啊？

[SiMaKe]

Probably someone else will know right away what you are asking, but I need more context.

[M_FAN]

I GUESS: 一本线： THE UNIVERSITY OF 211 PROJECT

[doraemon]

I would say something like:

Top grade, second grade, third grade universities.

[Kenny同志]

Thanks everyone. Based on Doraemon's reply, I think I'll go with,

一本线

The minimum admission score for top grade universities.

二本线

The minimum admission score for second grade universities.

三本线

The minimum admission score for third grade universities.

Any comments?

[doraemon]

Sounds fine to me! ;)

[Kenny同志]

Haha, they're settled!

[SiMaKe]

Even though you have this settled I have some questions (your exchange was rather cryptic:blink:). Are you saying that the terms refer to the "lines" of demarcation for university admittance to each class of university or are they describing the "grading/quality" of the university? If it's the latter then I would say the typical English term would be "tier" as opposed to "grade" as in "top tier, second tier, third tier" universities/schools/law firms/etc. What was the context for these phrases? Are these terms useful in other contexts such as describing the quality of manufactured products or food? Thanks for sharing any insights.

[Kenny同志]

Are you saying that the terms refer to the "lines" of demarcation for university admittance to each class of university or are they describing the "grading/quality" of the university?

Thanks for your comment, Simake.

"一本线" is the abbreviation for "第一批（the first batch）本科院校录取分数线". "The first batch" are the best universities in China. The number, one, two, three in 一本, 二本, and 三本 are in some way indicators of the quality of the university.

Are these terms useful in other contexts such as describing the quality of manufactured products or food?

No, I am afraid not. As for describing the quality of certain products like sugar, tea, paper, cloth, etc., we would use 特级, 一级, 二级 or 特等, 一等, 二等.

I am kind of puzzeld about the usage of "grade" and "tier". Could you expound on the difference between them? Thanks in advance for your help.

[SiMaKe]

kenny2006woo, thank you for the explanation. Since these terms are both abbreviations and of limited applicability, I assume they are somewhat obscure.

The link to the 211 Project was helpful and led me to a source (the article Li Lixu (2004). "China’s Higher Education Reform 1998-2003: A Summary". Asia Pacific Education Review V (1): 14–22. http://eri.snu.ac.kr...2.Li%20Lixu.pdf.) which provided a view of the how this project (and a sister project 985) originated along with a critique of its status and then-current outcomes (as of 2004). I was vaguely aware of this effort so this was helpful to fill in some of the many "holes" in my knowledge of this issue. Thanks again.

As for "tier" vs "grade". They both relate to ranking for some purpose. In the context here, typically, I think of "tier" as a category or grouping determined by some measure of relative "value or quality" (e.g., excellence of teaching, number of Nobel prize winners, dollars of annual funding for research) while "grade" is just a measure or a position on a scale of rank or quantity and does not necessarily imply a "better or worse" judgment. "Grade" can be used without any reference to "tier". For example, in US schools, students are grouped into first "grade", second "grade", etc. (generally) depending on their age (e.g., 5 year olds attend first grade). No implication of a value/quality here but rather just a position on a scale. However, "grade" can be linked to "tier". For example, different schools in some defined group (e.g., all universities in China with over 10,000 students) can be "graded" by some measure based on a combination of perceived teaching quality, rankings by peers, number of PhD's, etc. Those with the highest scores are called "top tier", the next group called second "tier" and so on. Another way to phrase this usage is to view "tier" as the "container" determined by a "grade".

Another closely related use of "tier" (not so applicable here but somewhat helpful to develop a mental framework) is "layer". A 3-tier wedding case has a top tier/layer (again no value implications but still indicating relative position).

Also, "tier" is a common term used in finance and business. E.g. to describe certain wholesale businesses, to describe the capital adequacy of a bank.

Hope this helps more than obfuscates.:rolleyes:

[Kenny同志]

As for "tier" vs "grade". They both relate to ranking for some purpose. In the context here, typically, I think of "tier" as a category or grouping determined by some measure of relative "value or quality" (e.g., excellence of teaching, number of Nobel prize winners, dollars of annual funding for research) while "grade" is just a measure or a position on a scale of rank or quantity and does not necessarily imply a "better or worse" judgment.

However, "grade" can be linked to "tier". For example, different schools in some defined group (e.g., all universities in China with over 10,000 students) can be "graded" by some measure based on a combination of perceived teaching quality, rankings by peers, number of PhD's, etc. Those with the highest scores are called "top tier", the next group called second "tier" and so on.

Thank you Simake for your great efforts to explain all these, but according to Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English, "tier" is just one of several levels in an organization or system, not indicating or implying the quality of something, while "grade" refers to a particular level of quality that a product, material, etc. has. Your explanation seems incompatible with what's on the dictionary.

However, I agree with you that "tier" can be used here as 一本, 二本, and 三本 can be considered three different levels in China’s universities.

[SiMaKe]

kenny2006woo,

Thanks for narrowing the focus of the question and probing deeper. This allows me to deepen/refine, or even correct, my own thinking (always a good thing :-) ).

First, to reemphasize, this discussion is talking about groupings of universities and the attributes or qualifiers used in (American) English to describe cohorts of this group. There are other uses of the terms "tier" and "grade" in different situations that can appear almost inconsistent.

Second, let me quote and comment on some different (online) sources and see what conclusions we can draw that might help (both you and me!).

Grade:

Longman - a particular level of quality that a product, material, etc has

Wikitionary - a rating; a degree or level of something; a position within a scale; a degree of quality

Princeton Univ's Wordnet (synonyms) - S (n) degree, grade, level (a position on a scale of intensity or amount or quality)

I see all of these as consistent in describing a "position on a scale". And all the examples provided reflect typical American English (in my view:-) ).

Now, let's look at "tier".

Longman - one of several levels in an organization or system

Wiktionary - a layer or rank, esp of seats or a wedding cake

Princeton Univ's Wordnet: S (n) grade, level, tier (a relative position or degree of value in a graded group) "lumber of the highest grade"

"Tier" seems a bit problematic. These three descriptions, while exhibiting some underlying commonality, seem almost mutually exclusive. How would one not familiar with how the term is used begin to extract the meaning? (I often run into this going the "other way" from English to Chinese!) Maybe because it's not all that commonly used.

I find Longman's definition somewhat peculiar. The use of "tier" in the context of "system" is not unknown. E.g., in the context of "computer systems" it is "a layer in a multitiered software architecture" (see "tier" in Wikipedia). As pointed out before, bank financial capital is also "tiered" for regulatory purposes. I don't know how broadly they meant "system" to be.

However, Longman's example "most senior tier of management" is a phrase I don't recall ever encountering. Usually we (in American English) would say "the most senior level of management". Maybe their example reflects British English usage. Or the "cave" I've lived in is not a large as I thought :-).

So, Longman's (in my view) is neither complete (and may not be intended to be) nor particularly helpful in understanding the term in the current context.

Similarly, Wiktionary also seems a little too focused by drawing attention to wedding cakes or stadium seating only

Finally, the Princeton synonym list and description, however, focuses on the idea of a "relative position or degree of value in a graded group". It is this description that fits this situation of "top tier universities". "Relative" employs the concept of "ranking" (e.g., first, second, third; top, bottom), "value" (e.g., best, mediocre, worst) and "grading" (e.g., each element of the group has a "score").

Also need to consider what are the usual collocations. So even though Princeton includes "grade" as a synonym (and then used it in the description?), I would say "top tier" or "top ranked" universities but not "top grade" universities because here we are talking about "relative position" (e.g., top), "value" (e.g., perceived "prestigious-ness") and "graded" (e.g., some measure of the perceived "prestigious-ness" such as usefulness in obtaining high-salaried post grad employment or peer ranking).

Does this help? Or make it worse? :-(

[Kenny同志]

Ooh, you've made a huge effort! Sorry for my delayed reply. Your post has cleared up something bewildering me. I also did a little bit research on the two words and I found quotes from The Free Dictionary Online especially helpful. Here they are,

GRADE

2. A position in a scale of size, quality, or intensity

TIER

1. one of a set of rows placed one above and behind the other, such as theatre seats

2.

a. a layer or level

b. (in combination) a three-tier cake

3. a rank, order, or row

Given the definitions above, I think "tier" is more appropriate as 一本, 二本, and 三本 are more ranks than different levels of quality (through in reality, the numbers suggest quality). If we use "grade", we might give people the impression that 二本 and 三本 are not so good or even of poor quality.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.