How to pronounce 小姐?

[Daan]

Thanks for telling me about that book, SiMaKe! I hadn't heard of it before. There aren't many books that indicate tone sandhi within word boundaries - I know of only a few other textbooks.

[Mugi]

No one seems to have had any trouble with determining the tone sandhi for 打死老虎 (dá sĭ láo hŭ/hu) and 洗冷水澡 (xĭ léng shúi zăo).

The tone sandhi is described in 汉语声调语调阐要与探索, 郭锦桴, 北京语言学院出版社 1993, as follows:

打死老虎: 阳 半上 阳 低降 [which means the tone contours will probably look something like: 35 21(1) 35 21]

洗冷水澡: 上 阳 过渡 上 [which means the tone contours will probably look something like: 213 35 (4)5 214]

[Jan Finster]

2.5 years in and the tone sandhi (or lack thereof) of 小姐 still confuses me. In most audios I find 3-0 (but in my mind it was always 2-3) ?

[Moshen]

I am scratching my head here at how much energy was expended in trying to nail down the "correct" tone numbers for this word.

 

Isn't the true test of whether or not something is appropriately pronounced whether or not native speakers detect something wrong in your pronunciation?  If the two options here are so close that so many people can't agree on which version is correct, then perhaps both are acceptable?

 

Compare people arguing now over the proper pronunciation of the word "Omicron."  Some say it "OH-mi-cron" and others say it "AH-mi-cron."   But either way, the speaker is understood.  (As long as they've been following current events.)  That's similar to whether you pronounce "Boston" as "BAW-stin" or "BAH-stin."  Either way, listeners know exactly what city you are referring to.

[Jan Finster]

On 1/9/2022 at 1:29 PM, Moshen said:

perhaps both are acceptable?

 

I do not disagree about both versions being understandable.

However, there should be a standard/norm. If you look up words in the German "Duden" (the reference dictionary), you will find such a norm (or accepted variations should they exit). Ideally teachers would teach that norm. Notwithstanding, the person on the street may still use non-norm language and be understood. 

 

I remember we had a similar discussion about 谢谢 (4-4 vs 4-0)....

[suMMit]

On 1/9/2022 at 5:29 PM, Jan Finster said:

2.5 years in and the tone sandhi (or lack thereof) of 小姐 still confuses me. In most audios I find 3-0 (but in my mind it was always 2-3) ?

Do have this confusion with a lot of other words, or just 小姐？Who even says 小姐？ I don't think I ever even say this word. I guess like 这是赵小姐。。I just don't feel like I ever use it. I have definitely never thought about its correct tones.

[abcdefg]

On 1/9/2022 at 7:33 AM, suMMit said:

Who even says 小姐？ I don't think I ever even say this word. I guess like 这是赵小姐。。I just don't feel like I ever use it. I have definitely never thought about its correct tones.

 

It was used a lot in Kunming, especially by older people when getting the attention of a waitress or a shop assistant in a store. Younger locals would call over the waitress with 美女, which was equally "politically incorrect" but commonly still done. (Kunming is not as sophisticates as Beijing.)  

[amytheorangutan]

On 1/9/2022 at 4:55 PM, abcdefg said:

It was used a lot in Kunming, especially by older people when getting the attention of a waitress or a shop assistant in a store. Younger locals would call over the waitress with 美女, which was equally "politically incorrect" but commonly still done. (Kunming is not as sophisticates as Beijing.)  

My mum definitely still uses 小姐 she hates 美女 she thinks it’s annoying and insincere haha but yes she is from the older generation and also her family came from Fujian. I heard it’s still commonly used in southern part of China? 

[Flickserve]

On 1/9/2022 at 5:29 PM, Jan Finster said:

2.5 years in and the tone sandhi (or lack thereof) of 小姐 still confuses me. In most audios I find 3-0 (but in my mind it was always 2-3) ?

Perhaps it changes on context? 

[Mugi]

Quote

On 1/9/2022 at 6:29 PM, Jan Finster said:

2.5 years in and the tone sandhi (or lack thereof) of 小姐 still confuses me. In most audios I find 3-0 (but in my mind it was always 2-3)

Both notations can be considered correct. It depends whether you are subscribing to the mainland Putonghua standard (3 - 0) or the Taiwan Guoyu standard (3>2 - 3). It also depends on the linguistic background of the speaker - many mainland Chinese, especially non-native Mandarin speakers, will also pronounce it as 2-3. To complicate things more, even though mainland Mandarin typically pronounces the 姐 in the neutral tone, 小 often undergoes tone sandhi first, so the actual pronunciation is 小3>2  姐0 (this is true at least for typical Beijing pronunciation, but it might not actually be standard Putonghua pronunciation).

And as Flickserve has suggested, pronunciation can change depending on context - unless the neutral tone serves to distinguish the word from another with the same pronunciation (either same characters or different characters), then the original tone of the neutral tone character can be reinstated for emphasis. For example, in the mid 90s when I was living in Beijing and normal to address waitresses as 小姐, then the typical pronunciation was 3>2 - 0. But if she didn't respond after being called two or three times,  you could expect the speaker to raise their voice further and clearly enunciate the third tone of 姐, which would of course necessitate 小 to undergo tone sandhi: 小3>2 姐3. 

[abcdefg]

On 1/9/2022 at 1:50 PM, amytheorangutan said:

My mum definitely still uses 小姐 she hates 美女 she thinks it’s annoying and insincere haha but yes she is from the older generation and also her family came from Fujian. I heard it’s still commonly used in southern part of China? 

 

I agree with your Mom. Addressing a young waitress as 美女 always struck me as somewhat odd and mildly disrespectful. Young male waiters in small eateries were addressed as 帅哥, which seemed equally inappropriate.

 

In all fairness, however, they were just kids, often early-middle teens, presumed distant relatives of the owner, fresh from the countryside, wearing sandals, sometimes a soiled apron. At noon it was routine to see a pair of them stumbling around in a busy noodle shop 米线店, one carrying a large metal pail into which the soupy dregs of the noodle bowls were unceremoniously emptied and the other wrestling a heavy plastic tub full of dirty dishes out to the sidewalk where they would be washed by another waitress team with soapy rags under a water spigot. The girls often wore a brightly-colored triangular scarf tied on top of their heads and between chores would stand around in little clusters, point and giggle. The guys, usually shy and skinny, would typically wear shiny gray slacks, a long sleeved white dress shirt and a leather belt that was six or eight inches too long, the tail shoved through several belt loops and wrapped around nearly to the middle of the back.  

 

 

[imron]

On 1/10/2022 at 12:33 AM, suMMit said:

Who even says 小姐？

It’s used extensively in Taiwan.  
 

Even in mainland I can’t recall ever hearing 3-0 for tones rather than 2-3. 

[roddy]

On 1/10/2022 at 1:06 AM, Flickserve said:

Perhaps it changes on context?

I find it quite easy to believe there's a difference between "So, I was talking to Miss Eyre last week, and she said Mr Rochester had..." and "Excuse me, Miss!"

[carlo]

I must have contributed to this thread like a decade ago as I'm now getting notified daily

 

Anyway, "3 0" is a confusing shorthand. "Third + neutral" to me means words like 姐姐, where the pitch contour looks something like 21-4 (the numbers now indicate pitch levels, 5 being the highest). 

 

Here I guess you mean that a tone sandhi has already happened so the contour is 35-2, which is what you hear in words like 猴子. Now I think that is superficially similar, but not quite like how I've ever heard standard speakers or even Beijing speakers say 小姐 in any situation. What I hear is 35-21. Compare the slight dip at the end, and the roughly equal duration of both syllables, vs 猴子.

[Publius]

Yeah, if you pronounce 小姐 like 猴子, it means 'prostitute'. To mean 'miss', emphasis must be put on the second syllable.

[Jan Finster]

On 1/12/2022 at 1:27 PM, Publius said:

To mean 'miss', emphasis must be put on the second syllable.

 

This is interesting. 

 

On 1/12/2022 at 12:27 PM, carlo said:

Anyway, "3 0" is a confusing shorthand. "Third + neutral" to me means words like 姐姐, where the pitch contour looks something like 21-4 (the numbers now indicate pitch levels, 5 being the highest). 

 

Here is an interesting explanation, which adds to the confusion:

"The Third Tone in Front of The Neutral Tone

Remember the Neutral-tone syllable already has an Original Tone that gets neutralized in certain situation? Its original Tone decides the pronunciation of the Third Tone in front of it. There are only two situations, as shown in the picture below. No.1 When the original Tone of the Neutral-tone syllable is the Third Tone, the Third Tone in front of it becomes the Second Tone; No.2 When the Neutral-tone syllable is originally in the First, the Second or the Fourth Tone, the Third Tone in front of it is pronounced in the Half Third Tone". 

 

https://chinesefor.us/lessons/mandarin-chinese-third-neutral-tone/

 

So, basically, this would then mean in Carlo's terms: 3-5 and then 3 (short & neutral) (?)

However, the same rule should be applied to 姐姐 and I learned to pronounce 姐姐 as 2-1 and then neutral (around level "3" or "4" as Carlo pointed out). Based on this explanation however, 姐姐 and 小姐 would be pronounced the same (?!).

On 1/12/2022 at 12:27 PM, carlo said:

I must have contributed to this thread like a decade ago as I'm now getting notified daily

So one way to re-activate old and valued members is to necro old threads. I love it! Will dig into the archive

[carlo]

On 1/12/2022 at 1:53 PM, Jan Finster said:

Based on this explanation however, 姐姐 and 小姐 would be pronounced the same (?!).

that's not true. Nouns with repeated characters, such as 姐姐 or 姥姥, or words with neutral suffixes like -zi, eg 饺子, are 21 + neutral.

 

But you also have 哪里 becoming 35-2. Or repeated verbs like 走走.  I can't remember if someone managed to come up with exact rules.

 

If you go further down the rabbit hole, Chinese linguists make further distinctions between things like 中重格式 (eg 广播) vs 重轻格式 (喜欢). Not quite neutral tone, but you can hear the last syllable in the second example is usually shorter, the first tone somewhat lower.

 

I haven't kept up so I don't know if this is now taught formally to students, and it surely confuses the heck out of Southern Chinese too -- in HK there are books that try to teach this stuff.

 

TL DR: follow your ears!