Advice needed - for young children

[longrob604]

Greetings all

We are looking for some advice concerning the the Chinese language education of our children - twins - who will be 4 years old this October. They have attended a trilingual (Cantonese/English/Mandarin) kindergarten in Hong Kong for two years. As you may know, kindergartens in HK are quite formal and structured (but centred around play of course) and most children can read and write (traditional Chinese) at a basic level when they enter local primary school. We are leaving Hong Kong soon and our children will enter Primary school in the UK in Sep 2011.

We are keen for them to continue learning Chinese. The system they have been in for the last 2 years has been primarily Cantonese - roughly 60% Cantonese, 20% English and 20% Mandarin. My wife and I speak (not fluent) Cantonese, but no Mandarin, however we do not speak with the children in Cantonese at all. They have also been learning to read and write traditional characters (and they already know more than me) ! The point is that their Cantonese is quite good (for 3.5 year old non-native speakers) while their Mandarin is very very basic (just some vocab and a few songs).

There is the possibility that we might move back to HK, but most likely not for at least 5 years.

So the question is, how do we continue their Chinese language education while in the UK ? Obviously we know we will have to engage private tutors. Also, luckily there is are two community Chinese schools in the area we will move to, one which teaches Mandarin and the other Cantonese, and luckier still, one operates on Saturdays and the other Sundays.

We have had several pieces of conflicting advice:

1. Ditch Cantonese now and focus on Mandarin - since Mandarin is only going to get more important in the future - and (arguably) it is easier for Mandarin speakers to learn Cantonese than vice-versa if they want to learn Cantonese in the future. The downside of this, of course, is that it would be a shame for them to lose the 2 years of Cantonese that they have already.

2. Ditch Mandarin - for now. Focus on and consolidate their Cantonese while learning traditional reading and writing - then learn Mandarin as an additional language in the future.

3. Continue with both languages with private lessons, one in each language with a different tutor for each one, plus the Saturday and Sunday schools in each. The downside of this is that it could confuse them, since it's no longer being done in such a structured and immersed environment that they had at kindergarten in HK.

My wife's native tongue is Thai and she also speaks the Teochew Chinese dialect - her family are from Shantou - but she only speaks Thai with the children. My native tongue is English and though I speak a few other languages at between elementary and basic conversational level, I only speak English with the children. Consequently they are native English and Thai speakers. The teachers at their kindergarten in HK told us that they rank around the 30th percentile in their class for conversational Cantonese - which seems quite good given they are the only non-native Cantonese speakers in the class.

We would appreciate any advice or comments.

LR

[skylee]

I don't know anything about raising children or language education. As a complete layman I would suggest option 1 (but would suggest teaching them traditional instead of simplified script if this is possible). And if I were a child I would prefer not to have to study all the time ...

[renzhe]

I don't think that many users will have the necessary experience to give good advice on raising quadrilingual children, so these will all be just well-intentioned suggestions.

It seems that the kids are fluent in the two more important languages: English and Thai, and that you can provide the necessary conversation. Another language on top of this should still be OK if you have the ability (such as a Chinese school on weekends). Learning two additional languages might make things much more difficult, and place a huge load on the kids. Picking one might be the safest thing to do.

Given that they already speak Cantonese well, and that there is a large Cantonese-speaking community in England, and that you are contemplating a return to HK, you might actually want to consider concentrating on Cantonese. You are right that Mandarin is more important internationally and will only become more important in the future, but if your kids grow up to be fluent Cantonese speakers and can read and write without problems, it won't be THAT difficult to pick up Mandarin later, especially since Mandarin grammar closely follows the grammar of the written language they will learn in school.

But you'll have to see. If their Mandarin and Cantonese are close, picking Mandarin might be a better choice. It's also important to see whether the children have any preference of their own. Or if one school is better than the other.

it is easier for Mandarin speakers to learn Cantonese than vice-versa

I really don't know, since I haven't learned both, but I would guess that the opposite is the case.

[longrob604]

Thanks for the replies.

A couple of other irons in the fire are:

1. Most of my wife's family speak Teochew (native) and Mandarin (fluent, not quite native) and every time we visit they start trying to teach the kids Teochew, which is the last thing they need - but you'll surely appreciate it's not easy to instruct the maternal grandparents great-grandparents and other relatives not to do it ! So this would be another reason to learn Mandarin now, as they could then communicate with my wife's family.

2. My comment about it being easier for Mandarin speakers to learn Cantonese, rather than the other way around is just based on my anecdotal evidence of living in HK for 15 years and having many local HK frends who tell me they find it hard to learn Mandarin - while on the other hand, I also have a few friends and very many business colleagues and acquaintances from the mainland (not just the South) who almost all speak almost near-perfect Cantonese and who all just picked it up themselves just through living in HK.

[longrob604]

Once other point. People may be concerned that we are pushing our kids too much. From an early age we tried to expose them to several languages in a structured way - always centered around play. I don't like to be critical of other cultures, or to generalize, but it's my experience that many children of this age sit in front of the TV for 5-6 hours a day or play computer games- sometimes the whole day on weekends or school holidays - this is considered normal in many households I know. While I believe there is a place for these kinds of activities in their education, we try to limit it to an hour or (max) 2 hours a day and always some educational TV programs - not the mindless cartoons that are all too common. We do sports, art and music with our kids, as well as study as much as possible.

And one more thing. When I went to school (UK) - languages were not highly prioritised (and still aren't). by the time I realised how useful they really are it was too late. It has been a massive undertaking to learn what little I know of a few languages - and I just want to give my kids the best chance to acquire language skills at an age where they can learn through play and without even realising they are studying.

Anyway, this isn't a thread about educational philosophy or child-rearing - but I just wanted to mention it in case people wondered.

[xianhua]

3. Continue with both languages with private lessons, one in each language with a different tutor for each one, plus the Saturday and Sunday schools in each.

I wouldn't expect too much from the Mandarin teaching at your local Sunday school. Our nearest Sunday school basically adopts the services of a few local Chinese university students. Whilst they well be native speakers, they have little or no experience of teaching their language, let alone to children. The ubiquitous assumption that speaking a language enables one to teach it, is fundamentally flawed.

[xiaotao]

My kids know English, Mandarin, and Cantonese. They have always attended bilingual school. We don't live in Asia. My kids get Chinese instruction 6 days a week. It takes lots of dedication to be able to speak and write in 2 languages. It means twice the homework. Kids will be kids. Not all kids can handle the load. Kids need their other after school activities too. All that takes time management. I think Hong Kong people are probably the only folks that are truly bilingual in Cantonese and English. It's hard to shake off the Cantonese accent though.

Since you and your wife are not fluent in Chinese. When you get back to UK, it might be a good idea to hire a Chinese babysitter/tutor. A bilingual school would be much better than weekend Chinese school. I believe that only Chinese speaking families can have some success with only weekend instruction. Even their kids drop out due to lack of interest. A yearly trip to a Chinese speaking country would help a lot. I know of a non chinese speaking parent that have her kids spends 2 months a year in China. They speak well but they don't read and write well. Kids need to enjoy reading Chinese books on a regular basis.

[yonglin]

2. My comment about it being easier for Mandarin speakers to learn Cantonese, rather than the other way around is just based on my anecdotal evidence of living in HK for 15 years and having many local HK frends who tell me they find it hard to learn Mandarin - while on the other hand, I also have a few friends and very many business colleagues and acquaintances from the mainland (not just the South) who almost all speak almost near-perfect Cantonese and who all just picked it up themselves just through living in HK.

I disagree. Cantonese speakers in Hong Kong have little or no incentive to learn Mandarin. The more appropriate comparison would be the Mandarin spoken by Cantonese people in Mainland China (or HK people who have moved there). They tend to speak Mandarin very well, especially if they are reasonably educated.

I think there is little difference going between Mandarin->Cantonese and Cantonese->Mandarin: a native Cantonese speaker will learn Mandarin quickly in a Mandarin speaking environment, and a native Mandarin speaker will learn Cantonese quickly in a Cantonese speaking environment.

[gato]

Most writing is done in Mandarin, even in HK. So it should be easier for relatively educated Cantonese speakers to learn Mandarin because they will already know a lot of Mandarin in written form.

[doraemon]

I wouldn't really know much about language education for children, but I don't think it's a good idea to ditch either Cantonese or Mandarin. Of course Mandarin is only going to get more important from now on, but Cantonese still has a broad influence (especially overseas) due to its prosperous economy, and its significance is unlikely to diminish.

So I would suggest continuing lessons in both languages, children pick up languages much more quickly than adults do, so it won't be very difficult for them at all. Hope this helps. ;)

[longrob604]

Most writing is done in Mandarin, even in HK. So it should be easier for relatively educated Cantonese speakers to learn Mandarin because they will already know a lot of Mandarin in written form.

Err. I 'm not Chinese (though my wife is) but aren't you confusing the spoken languages with the written scripts ?

Eg, Cantonese is the local dialect in Southern China, spoken in Guangdong Province and Hong Kong. Those in Guangdong province will leaern simplified script, while those in HK will learn traditional script, even though their mother tongue is the same. In Taiwan and Singapore, the main mother tongue is Mandarin, while the written form is traditional script.

Throughout the mainland, children learn simplified script, and standard Mandarin at school (plus their local dialect at home). But outside the mainland, traditional script is most common, while a variety of dialects are spoken (mainly Mandarin and Cantonese).

At least that's my simple understanding.

[longrob604]

I disagree. Cantonese speakers in Hong Kong have little or no incentive to learn Mandarin. The more appropriate comparison would be the Mandarin spoken by Cantonese people in Mainland China (or HK people who have moved there). They tend to speak Mandarin very well, especially if they are reasonably educated.

I think there is little difference going between Mandarin->Cantonese and Cantonese->Mandarin: a native Cantonese speaker will learn Mandarin quickly in a Mandarin speaking environment, and a native Mandarin speaker will learn Cantonese quickly in a Cantonese speaking environment.

You may be right that there is little difference in Mandarin->Cantonese or Cantonese->Mandarin, if you are totally immersed in the relevant environment. I was only speaking from my experience. However, it's not true to say that Cantonese speakers in HK have litte or no incentive to learn Mandarin. Mandarin is having ever increasing importance in HK. Every time you call any company - bank, utility, internet etc, you have options to engage with Mandarin-speaking staff. All government officials can now speak Mandarin - and often give speeches in Mandarin - whereas a few years ago it was not common. Any job in a front-line sales position - eg bank teller, shop assistant, property agent - are required to be able to speak Mandarin as well as Cantonese. Just open any local newspaper advertising jobs and you will see that Mandarin is a requirement for all but the lowliest (or specialised) jobs. This is because of the ever increasing influx of wealthy mainlanders. And those local HK people with excellent Mandarin skills are in short supply and can command quite high salaries. I know several who work in retail banking, who seem to speak good Mandarin will tell you that they *think* their Mandarin is quite poor - and they are not just being modest, becuase they also say their English is good (which isn't quite true!) - and many of these people have been my friends for many years.

[gato]

Eg, Cantonese is the local dialect in Southern China, spoken in Guangdong Province and Hong Kong. Those in Guangdong province will leaern simplified script, while those in HK will learn traditional script, even though their mother tongue is the same. In Taiwan and Singapore, the main mother tongue is Mandarin, while the written form is traditional script.

You are mixing up the script and the language. Whether people use traditional and simplified script has nothing to do with what language the writing is in. You can use traditional characters to write in Mandarin and you can use simplified characters to write in Cantonese (or some other non-Mandarin Chinese dialect). They don't necessarily have anything to do with each other.

Cantonese grammar and vocabulary are similar but different from Mandarin grammar and vocabulary. The accepted convention to use Mandarin grammar and vocabulary for formal writing. For example, in HK newspapers, you might the see the hard news sections written in mostly Mandarin, while the entertainment section is written in Cantonese.

See these earlier discussions that touched on the issue of spoken vs. written Cantonese:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/17958-limited-resources-for-written-cantonese-how-can-i-learn-written-grammar/page__view__findpost__p__143008

Limited resources for written Cantonese! How can I learn written grammar?

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/222-can-speakers-of-mandarin-and-cantonese-understand-each-other/

Can speakers of Mandarin and Cantonese understand each other

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/11194-cantonese-vs-mandarin-in-hong-kong/

Cantonese vs Mandarin in Hong Kong?

[skylee]

All government officials can now speak Mandarin

This is not true. Not yet, at least.

[renzhe]

Err. I 'm not Chinese (though my wife is) but aren't you confusing the spoken languages with the written scripts ?

No, he's completely right. Dialects differ not only in pronunciation, but also grammar and vocabulary. The simplified/traditional issue is a relatively minor one.

Before the 20th century, most things were written in Classical Chinese (though there are notable exceptions, including the four classics), which is not a spoken language. Since the early 20th century, the vast majority of written Chinese has been written in vernacular Chinese, which is based on the way people spoke in the north. This is still what the vast majority of people use when writing.

Vernacular Chinese is essentially Mandarin. It uses Mandarin grammar and Mandarin vocabulary. It can be written using traditional or simplified characters. It is usually more formal than spoken language, but if you read it outloud, it is basically how a native Mandarin speaker speaks, in terms of vocabulary and grammar.

Even in Hong Kong, most written material is in vernacular Chinese. There is also written Cantonese, which uses Cantonese vocabulary, particles and grammar, but it is not used for formal writing.

The result is that a Cantonese speaker who can read and write needs to learn the Mandarin pronunciation of the characters, and he/she can basically already understand Mandarin. A Mandarin speaker would need to learn Cantonese-specific vocabulary and grammar PLUS learn the Cantonese pronunciation (which also has more tones). This is why it seems like Cantonese speakers might have an easier time learning Mandarin than the other way around. I've personally met a number of Cantonese speakers (from Hong Kong, so they didn't learn Mandarin in school) who picked Mandarin up rather quickly. The environment is very important.

[skylee]

The result is that a Cantonese speaker who can read and write needs to learn the Mandarin pronunciation of the characters,

This is not factually correct. A Cantonese speaker who can read and write does not need to learn the Mandarin pronunciation of the characters. He/She can pronounce Chinese characters in Cantonese.

[renzhe]

Of course.

What I meant is that a Cantonese speaker who wants to learn to speak Mandarin will have to learn the Mandarin pronunciation. But will already be familiar with much of Mandarin grammar and vocabulary.

It doesn't work the other way around, as most native speakers of Mandarin are not familiar with Cantonese grammar or Cantonese-specific vocabulary.

[gato]

The position of an educated Cantonese speaker who cannot speak / understand spoken Mandarin is like a Chinese person who can read and write English but cannot speak or understand oral English -- except the Cantonese speaker is likely to be essentially at native level in written Mandarin because written Mandarin is taught basically from first grade on, if not even earlier.

[xiaotao]

Your children will have no problem learning Cantonese, Mandarin, and English as long as they are in Hong Kong. Once you move to an English environment the Mandarin and Cantonese will be very challenging to keep. I believe that there is nothing more powerful than mother tongue.

The Cantonese that your children is presently learning will not be a waste if time if you decide to concentrate on English and Mandarin once you get to UK. If one understands Cantonese it's easy to understand Mandarin. My oldest went to Cantonese when she was 3 and changed to a English Mandarin school at age 4. It all depends what's available to you. It's all a great experiment. You are not going to know how fluent they will be until you get there. Problems in learning a second language doesn't show up until later when the material gets challenging. There's nothing wrong with exposing he kids to both Mandarin and Cantonese but a child might find that formal instruction in each redundant. I think to have both Mandarin and Cantonese it would be best if one speaks one at home and get formal training for the other. I have a preference for Mandarin school. I don't want my kids to speak Mandarin with a heavy Cantonese accent. I don't mind if they speak Cantonese with a Mandarin accent. Most all of all I don't want my kids speaking English with a Chinese accent.

[longrob604]

Thanks to all for the replies.

Xiaotao, I'm not sure, but you seem to be saying that in our situation it would better to make the switch to Mandarin now ? My gut feeling is also the same.

The resources available to us are private (qualified) Mandarin and Cantonese tutors in our area as well as a Mandarin Saturday school (run by a local language academy with qualified Mandarin teachers) and a Cantonese church Sunday school (both are for around 2-3 hours). We have the time and resources for 3-4 weekday private lessons.

I am thinking in terms of a five-year time horizon, during which time I am sure we will be in the UK (and there is a strong possibility it will be longer).

Obviously one of the major problems we face is that we don't speak either Mandarin on Cantonese at home. My wife could speak Cantonese with them, but she's not completely fluent and surely her grammar mistakes and accent would rub off on them, so I don't think that would be such a good idea (and she only reads a little Chinese, so probably can't help much with homework)

One of the motivations we have for the kids to learn Chinese, other than the obvious one of it being a very useful skill in the future, is that my wife is Chinese, and she had the opportunity to learn Cantonese (and Mandarin) thoroughly when she was a child, but her parents never pursued it seriously. She grew up in Bangkok, so she speaks Thai natively and she just picked up Teochew at home (her family's native tongue) and she picked up spoken Cantonese mainly living in Hong Kong for 10 years. Both my wife and her family regret that she has lost a lot of her Chinese heritage, and we are keen for our children to acquire as much as possible.

Does anyone think it would be a big mistake to have (say) two private lessons in each language per week, plus the weekend schools. I have the feeling that it would be too little of each.

Do people think it would be better to focus on just Mandarin (or Cantonese) - I am still very confused but I have the feeling from what has been posted above that there isn't much downside in switching from Cantonese to Mandarin at this point.

Thanks again.

LR