Getting past the intermediate stage

[davoosh]

Hello,

I was wondering how people on here have managed to get past the 'intermediate stage' in their Chinese learning. By intermediate stage, I mean the stage where you can express most things without much hesitation, your accent is reasonable and use of vocabulary mostly appropriate. I feel that I am at this stage myself, but I cannot progress past it. When I watch TV series or films, the parts which I get stuck on are usually very culture specific, or have something to do with classical chinese (obviously more chengyu would help here, but even knowing so many chengyu isn't enough) - what I mean is, when people make innovative use of language for comical or other results, this is often the hardest part to grasp the nuance of.

I remember I was watching a TV series a while back, and a character made some sort of pun out of a chengyu or classical chinese phrase, the pun was a play on words, and without subtitles, I definitely would not have guessed which words (characters) the speaker had used, yet when I asked a native speaker, he was able to correctly identify the words in said context.

What does it take to reach this level? Obviously not being in a Chinese speaking country doesn't help, but I feel as if, even if I were in a Chinese speaking country, a lot of the stuff is 'too Chinese' for me to take part in a 'natural' conversation (i.e. the type a native would have with another native). Should I　just keep practicing listening, reading, speaking, etc? Or does anyone have any specific recommendations in overcoming this hurdle?

Many thanks!

[roddy]

There's a well-recognized intermediate plateau in language learning. You don't have the rapid progress of the elementary student, nor the ability to function in a wide range of situations of the advanced. Keep plugging away basically, and you'll get there. Nice thing about this stage though is that native materials - tv, books, whatever, start to become accessible if you pick them carefully, and that can be a massive motivator.

[aristotle1990]

One of the major difficulties with the Chinese language is that Chinese people, even the young ones, are far more likely to make allusions to classical poems and historical figures in everday conversation than, say, Americans. Since every Chinese student is forced to learn this stuff in elementary school, it's a base of vast common knowledge that is very hard to acquire as an adult.

But don't think it's a problem unique to learning Chinese -- Americans share a base of vast common knowledge too, except it's not history, it's pop culture. (Think about using Family Guy and South Park quotes or voices in your conversations with friends.)

[Shi Tong]

I am at this stage with my speaking, and I'm so used to being at the intermediate plateu that it's getting rather boring. I can circumlequte and get my meanings across and can pass simple tests easily when listening, but when it comes to anything more complicated- I'm in the same boat.

I'm also at a much lower stage with my writing, and I think learning to write and read will help me. I dont know if you're in the same situation with your reading and writing, but I've found it immensely helpful in adding some stranger, less frequently heard phrases, so this may help you too.

One thing I do find frustrating is frequency and commonality. You want to learn things that are quite common, common enough that everyone knows it, but not uncommon enough that a lot of people dont, and there's no way to know which is which without asking a native speaker, and this can be arduous- especially with things like chengyu.

An example is I learned 逼上梁山.. I'm sure some people know this, but my wife didn't.. I had to explain the story to her before she realised what it was referring to, and only with this context did she twig at the meaning.

So now I know 逼上梁山, but I feel it's hard to use in context and that everyone will know it! :blink:

[gato]

You could do some targeted studying. If you are weak on chengyu, you could start by doing flashcards with a list of most commonly used chengyu's like the below.

http://www.plecoforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=516&p=3101#p3101

Most commonly used Chinese idioms

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/16981-a-list-of-chengyu/

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/21001-frequently-used-chengyu-project/

[skylee]

I think 逼上梁山 is quite common and easy (the chengyus that I know are all very common and easy).

but I feel as if, even if I were in a Chinese speaking country, a lot of the stuff is 'too Chinese' for me to take part in a 'natural' conversation (i.e. the type a native would have with another native).

But isn't it the same for people learning other languages? I would think that Chinese people who learn English would have similar difficulties if they know nothing about the bible or some greek/roman mythology. No?

[renzhe]

Obviously not being in a Chinese speaking country doesn't help, but I feel as if, even if I were in a Chinese speaking country, a lot of the stuff is 'too Chinese' for me to take part in a 'natural' conversation (i.e. the type a native would have with another native). Should I　just keep practicing listening, reading, speaking, etc?

I think so, yeah. If there is a faster way, then I'm not aware of it.

Reading, listening and watching TV will help you with your other problem, because you'll learn lots of the cultural context you will need to follow native conversations. Like skylee said, most people will have this problem when first living in a foreign country, but sometimes the cultures are more similar, and there is more that you already know. For me, catching up with the necessary background cultural knowledge is more difficult in China than, say, Germany.

Reading and watching important works will certainly help, but it's a long process.

[rezaf]

It's good to know that there are other people who feel like this. I have felt it for more than a year. I'm also trying very hard to get past this level. I did everything including talking to Chinese people, reading books and watching TV series but the progress was too slow. Now by intensive work in my vocabulary I am beginning to see the light from the cracks in the wall. My writing is progressing very well and I don't need to check the dictionary all the time but my speaking is still very primitive cuz it's hard to remember the words I know in rush but I am getting the hang of it.

[xianu]

that intermediate to advanced level is really hard to get past when you aren't in an immersive environment. I always push for my students to go abroad, and even the short term programs (1-4 momnths) are helpful, but without that, it is really really difficult, and I haven't met any students who have been able to get past that plateau without significant time abroad in Chinese. Suggestions for helping is to increase vocabulary in context through reading stories (where you get a lot more collquial usage) and tv (though it is hard to get into without subtitles). Obviously speaking with sympathetic and patient native speakers is helpful, but not always easy to do, and often kind of embarassing. You can also try maintaining both a written as well as an audio journal. Try recording yourself speaking extemporaneously on some topic, listen to yourself, analyze your speech patterns. find short articles and use them as models for your own essays on similar topics. and always always increase vocabulary. the more you know the easier it will be to understand unfamiliar but related words in context, and to incorporate them into your own vocabulary.

[wrbt]

You definitely are not alone.

I've been stuck at intermediate level for at least three years now. I almost feel that I lose as much as I gain at this point, like if I pick up a new reader to study in the time I'm absorbing new vocabulary I'm forgetting stuff that I've previously learned and didn't use enough to make stick. I just keeping plugging away, figure someday I'll have the time away from my career enough to spend some time in China and make a strong push to advanced level.

[wushijiao]

I feel that I am at this stage myself, but I cannot progress past it. When I watch TV series or films, the parts which I get stuck on are usually very culture specific, or have something to do with classical chinese (obviously more chengyu would help here, but even knowing so many chengyu isn't enough) - what I mean is, when people make innovative use of language for comical or other results, this is often the hardest part to grasp the nuance of.

I think probably the best (and perhaps the only way) to address this issue is to have a knowledgeable Chinese person help you understand these points. Generally speaking, I think that teachers/schools are a waste of time, and one can learn much more efficiently as an independent learner. But, culturally specific stuff - especially related to historical allusions, jokes, word play, specific senses of humor...etc, these are all things in which a knowledgeable teacher can be of great help.

So with that said, I'm not quite sure what you could do. I've often thought that, if I were running a Chinese language program, I'd have one advanced class in which students would watch a sit-com or cross talk, and the teacher would give vocab lists, model usages, but would also explain the jokes, and the thinking behind the jokes. In that regard, perhaps you could put out a specific ad in a forum/newspaper for a language exchange and try to find a college student (or some other similar Chinese person) in your area to see if they could help you with these things?

In any case, it's a long process, and I think you just have to work hard for several years in order to get over the plateau.

[xiaotao]

I think the term "Intermediate" is really inflated for Chinese learners. Don't be so hard on yourself. You simply need to increase your vocabulary to be able to figure out what they are talking about. I believe that can learn from movies and shows if you can understand 70% of what they are talking about. If you don't understand most of it, try a different show. I find that watching classic films are very helpful. I think graded material for Chinese children are excellent because the characters are harder and they almost always have a cultural content.

[smiss]

Hi!

I think that I am at this stage, too and it makes me crazy. I try to learn the words I pick up here and there with my flashcard program in my cellphone which works quite well in the first place but then they seem to never reappear in real life.

Another problem I have noticed recently might be called a concentration issue. While watching TV I often understand the first part of a longer sentence but then my brain seems to black-out at some point and I end up not getting anything. Shorter sentences are no problem though. Reading the subtitles while listening makes it MUCH easier, too. My listening comprehension is much worse than my reading. Do you think that's normal with Chinese? I have never had this impression while learning English.

Will it just improve with more input or do I need something else in addition? Maybe some meditation techniques to improve my concentration ability? ;)

Bye

Matthias

[renzhe]

Another problem I have noticed recently might be called a concentration issue. While watching TV I often understand the first part of a longer sentence but then my brain seems to black-out at some point and I end up not getting anything. Shorter sentences are no problem though. Reading the subtitles while listening makes it MUCH easier, too. My listening comprehension is much worse than my reading. Do you think that's normal with Chinese? I have never had this impression while learning English.

Yes. I think that it's normal with Chinese.

One of the reasons is that Chinese is a tonal language, and stress is not a very strong feature. This makes it harder to pick out where the words begin and end, and makes it harder to pick out specific words you don't understand. It all makes sense in context, but you're missing the listening skills needed to make out the context. Often, you will understand for a while, and then the first unknown word will knock you off-balance, and the rest of the sentence will seem like incomprehensible jumble. That's why characters help, they disambiguate and put you on the right track.

What you describe sounds very typical for people who learn Chinese abroad, and mostly through reading. As your listening comprehension improves (TV shows! TV shows!), you will notice far more recurring elements, you will have a better understanding of the sentence structures, and it will become easier to understand longer sentences and passages.

[jbradfor]

If you find TV shows too difficult for your currently (as I do), you might want to consider SlowChinese. I find it useful at the intermediate stage to get used to these recurring elements at a slower speed. There is a reason adults talk slower to young kids!

[smiss]

Yes, that makes sense. It is obviously also much harder to understand what is said if there are background noises, because in that situation you'll have to make out even more context. But the words in Chinese are so short that even missing two or three syllables can make a lot trouble.

Did you also notice that these problems with listening almost always happen with Chinese men, while most of the women speak much more clearly? It's funny telling somebody that you understand only one half of the population but not the other one. ;)

[calibre2001]

I had the same issue for a while. Yes, I was under the impression that women spoke more clearly than men for a long time. I realised it could be because in learning materials the speech used for teaching tends to be at a higher pitch. Men speak at a lower pitch in real life and sometimes more muffled, meaning it's harder for under-exposed listeners to hear the tones. Also, there's slurring of speech, culture, fast talk, wrong tones, accents etc that messes up the listening process. I think none of this would be a problem if I was immersed in an all chinese environment.

The truth was my listening skills hadn't 'broken in' yet to how chinese speak in real life. I could understand from subtitles just fine unless it was using advanced/specialist/classical chinese. It took many hours of listening from podcasts to tv shows to the news to adjust my ears to the all the common patterns & idiosyncracies in speech as pointed out above.

In the end, one day I woke up and suddenly realised I understood significantly more (well as far as colloquial dialogues are concerned) without looking at subs. It's like a child learning how to walk. He/She keeps trying and failing each time until one day he/she wakes up to find they can walk. But I also think all those hours of reading and vocab building played a role too. IMO it's more efficient to learn words through the ear than reading. One of my mistakes in the past was relying on subtitles only and neglecting listning.

The only way to go around the concentration issue is practice and practice. For listening, I think only tonnes of listening helps alot if you're not in an environment of chinese speakers. But it should be at the right level.

[renzhe]

You can do wrong things when it comes to learning grammar, vocabulary, tones, and many many other things.

I don't think that you can do anything wrong when it comes to listening and reading, though. The more you do it, the better. Your brain will sort it out eventually. You simply need lots of volume. Reading subtitles, ignoring subtitles, concentrating, listening in the background, very easy stuff, very hard stuff, they all help. As with many other things, it's probably best to mix it up.