SLA: problems vs theories

[songlei]

had an idea the other day. i was going to write it down, expand on it, insert graphs, pictures and video and all sorts of stuff to make it look big and bold. eventually it would sell millions of copies and i would be kicking it in the caribbean. of course, i never had the time to do all this because i was busy learning new words, so instead i will post the short version here.

it's very simple really. when confronted with the task of learning an impossible language like chinese you can do several things. sign up for a class, try and figure out how natives did it and mimic them, live in china for 10 years, tattoo the entire content of the kangxi dictionary on your body, or look for shortcuts. i am lazy by nature, and thus i am inclined to the latter. so i started reading up on second language acquisition theories, became a member of the church of srs, was inspired by antimoon, etc. but then after my latest chinese-learning burnout (those occur at a rate of about once every two months), i realized i was chasing a ghost.

besides studying chinese, i sometimes read about philosophy, and one particular school of thought i had been interested in for a while, pragmatism, all of a sudden became very relevant to what i was doing in terms of language learning. and now i get to the point: pragmatists attempt to shift the focus on consequences of theories instead of a particular theory's being objectively true or not. in other words, they argue that we should focus on specific problems as well as using particular theories for those specific problems, instead of subscribing to one theory that claims to explain all problems. in other words, a bit of marxism here, some efficient markets theory there, freedom of speech at home, guantanamo somewhere far off the coast, etc. so we get rid of dogmas, and apply certain doctrines to specific problems without implementing the parts of the doctrine we don't like or have no use for. of course, this sounds very obvious, but it can change the way you approach studying chinese significantly.

example. not too long ago i saw a topic here entitled something like "does reading build other skills as well?" most of you agreed that it does, but that that mean that we should stop doing other things? the folks at antimoon seem to think so. i disagree. because we don't know chinese for many reasons. perhaps enough reading will eliminate all those reasons over time, but that does not mean it does so equally effectively for all those specific reasons. reading may improve your speaking, but listening will improve your speaking faster. and maybe listening to easy stuff will make you speaking improve faster than listening to harder stuff, whereas listening to harder stuff would make you progress faster in terms of listening comprehension.

so what is this topic about? i'd like to suggest we talk about specific problems and specific solutions here. let me kick this off by stating what i think the basic problems are foreigners face when trying to understand spoken chinese, plus some tentative solutions:

why we can't understand chinese people:

we don't know the words they are using (obvious)

we can't predict where the sentence is going, and forget where it came from (this is called parsing, and parsing skills can be trained most effectively, i think, by reading a lot, analyzing grammar, translating chinese to your native language and listening to easy-to-follow spoken chinese)

we can't figure out where words begin and end, and thus we cannot distill meaning from the message (listen to spoken chinese that is a notch too difficult for you to understand. a lot.)

as far as i know, the listening problem is threefold, and therefore the most effective solution cannot be a single one. the reasons why we don't understand are multiple, and each of these reasons has it's own most suitable solution(s).

let's all share our specific strategies for specific problems here, because meta-theories, as appealing as they might be, are never universally applicable. when you simplify a complex reality, something inevitably gets lost. let's make this a topic that appreciates the complexity of language acquisition by proving solutions for little things, so that nothing gets lost. that's what i've been thinking about. but i can't do it on my own. i look forward to reading your responses.

[querido]

Your post is about understanding spoken Chinese.

You list three factors: not knowing the words, not being able to parse them from a string, and not being able to parse a sentence fast or easily enough.

My solution:

Learn the words using the usual methods, ideally with audio on the cards.

Then also, listen to the audio with gaps between the words, with the gaps as long as necessary.

Gradually shorten the gaps.

I can imagine the supportive software, can't you?

Stretch out a lesson so long that you can reflect as needed on each word and on why they're arranged as they are. You'll quickly want to hear it played faster.

[songlei]

such a thing would've been a great help to me. i guess with some money and patience it could surely be implemented. i'm extremely lazy when it comes to learning. i mean i put a lot of hours in it and all, but i wish there would be something you could just listen to without having to do anything else. pretty much like pimsleur, but much longer and more difficult.

what i wrote above doesn't go for listening only. the whole idea is to examine yourself in terms of where you are with chinese, and what the underlying problems are that make it that way. let's say you want to speak fluently, read and comprehend as quickly as a native, as well as be able to write eloquently. there are probably more than twenty sub-reasons/problems for why you do not possess these skills. all these sub-problems need to be addressed. you could opt for one meta-strategy, lot's of reading for example (anti-moon), or, as i propose, come up with mini-strategies tailored specifically to those numerous sub-problems. i strongly believe such an approach is much more effective, provided that you accurately identify the sub-problems, as well as find a solution that is actually effective.

this approach is of course super pragmatic, and it doesn't have a broad appeal i guess (to the 150 other people who read the topic and did not reply: thanks for proving my point). it is indeed much nicer to hear that strategy X is the answer to all your problems, but i don't think that it is wise to subscribe to such ideas as i am convinced it will slow down your progress.

let's give it a shot in this topic though. if you encounter a specific problem or stumbling block with chinese, let's share those here and see if we can find out how it can be overcome! it will be a messy collection of advice, but until scientists come up with a machine that can program your brain overnight to be able to speak chinese fluently, i think it's the best option we got. those who disagree, please reply as well!

[songlei]

let me kick things off with a common problem: the inability to memorize vast quantities of vocabulary.

i used to believe this problem had been solved already by srs. i slowly have come to realize, however, that srs doesn't work as well as it claims it does. another respected member here also raised some doubts about its efficacy on these forums, and my initial response was no way, are you crazy? but now i think this person may have been right. it sounds shocking, but hear me out.

not too long ago i read something about a scientific experiment regarding students' exam results (see below for details*), that these students performed significantly better if the exam was held in the classroom where the students were instructed on the subject matter. this proves that somehow the environment, or in srs' case, the interface plays a role in the memorization process. in fact, i have noticed many times that despite going through my anki deck is a breeze, i never seem to recall the words i have learned when i need them in real situations. i think the two are related. somehow the words that i srs are stored in the srs faculty of my brain, and not the faculty that i use to communicate in everyday life. of course, there is overlap, and it's not entirely black and white, but i think this does call for diversification in the vocabulary accumulation process. luckily, srs allows you to step outside of srs.

in order to overcome this problem, i started experimenting with cards that take me outside of the srs interface. in terms of vocab drilling, i decided to record myself reading out loud a list of ten or so items in my deck, with two second intervals between the question and the answer. subsequently i created a card in my srs deck referring to this audio file. the task now became to open itunes, and play the audiofile and listen to and answer the questions are read out in the recording. of course, this method is still subject to the algorithm behind srs, but it takes you away from the familiar anki/supermemo screen and allows you enhance your recollection of the words in a completely different context, with your eyes closed. i have even started srsing news podcasts, referring to the audio file, and passages of books referring to the page numbers. the possibilities of stepping out of the srs environment are endless (you can even allow srs to dictate when you are allowed to go to the bathroom, although i have found that fulfilling this task become increasingly more difficult after each repeat).

another problem i have encountered with learning new vocabulary is that i can't remember a word if it doesn't mean much to me. let's take 己所不欲，勿施于人 for example (don't do do to others what you don't want them to do to you). remembering a string of random characters is a daunting task. but when you know that it actually stands for "self / that which / not / wish, / don't / implement or act out / on / (other) people", it becomes much easier. with in the case of more complex (in terms of meaning) characters like 欲 and 施, i consult the dictionary for compound entries, so you get a list of say 10 words in which those characters are used. i find this is much better than simply looking up the meaning of the character, because it proves how it is actually used in words instead of just giving you a list of random english translations. this way, the next time you encounter a word with that particular character in it, it means much more to you than just a one-on-one translation of english and chinese, and thus becomes easier to remember.

the point of this story is, again, that a seemingly simple task of learning words is in reality much more complex. by identifying the underlying problems, the task can be achieved much more successfully if adequate solutions are provided. of course, with learning words, as well as improving listening skills, there are many more factors that come into play. that's why i think this topic is justified. your observations and strategies would be of great value to me as well as everybody else!

*footnote: i forgot where i read it, google it this is what i love about forums, you don't have to adhere to any academic standards whatsoever!

[gato]

Then also, listen to the audio with gaps between the words, with the gaps as long as necessary.

Gradually shorten the gaps.

I can imagine the supportive software, can't you?

Looks like someone has implemented this idea:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/26848-splitting-audio-in-sections-and-repeating-parts/

Splitting audio in sections and repeating parts

[wushijiao]

let me kick things off with a common problem: the inability to memorize vast quantities of vocabulary.

I'm pretty sure that the best way to memorize vast quantities of vocabulary is extensive reading and listening, combined with flashcard work and some intensive drills.

Here are two posts in which I expanded on that a bit:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/4964-my-recent-studying-methods/

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/7043-academic-communications-in-a-foreign-language/

it is indeed much nicer to hear that strategy X is the answer to all your problems, but i don't think that it is wise to subscribe to such ideas as i am convinced it will slow down your progress.

Note, in the first link, I mentioned at least a few different activities. I think one should use a variety of methods and strategies for language acquisition. So, you're right that one theory/strategy won't solve all problems.

In general, however, I think any effective program should be fairly Krashen-esqu, focusing on interesting content, in which the learner is able to receive meaningful messages through the text.

[renzhe]

let me kick things off with a common problem: the inability to memorize vast quantities of vocabulary.

i used to believe this problem had been solved already by srs.

I think the problem is expecting srs alone to solve it.

To me, SRS is the first step, something that keeps a loose meaning of a word floating in my memory for a while, but you need to use it, read it, and hear it in order to really memorise it.

The SRS helps with the vast quantities part, because it helps you remember things longer. It's worked for me, but the words that I've internalised happen to be the ones that I read in books, or heard in TV shows, after having memorised them through SRS.

[Glenn]

I feel like the SRS helps me learn/remember the word, but listening and reading give me the context and the understanding necessary to actually use it and appreciate it fully (or more fully). They work hand-in-hand in my experience. Taking one out makes the process less efficient.