Do you regret having started learning Chinese?

[songlei]

have any of you ever regretted starting to learn chinese?

i have at some points, especially because it's too late for me too back out now. i've invested three years of full time studying, and it's not paying off as quickly as i'd hoped. i have severely underestimated the task, and can't help feeling very frustrated at times. on the whole, however, i don't regret my choice to learn chinese. in many ways, i am disappointed when it comes to the language, culture and country. or maybe it's because everything in my life has been about china, chinese language and chinese culture for the past three years, and i would have gotten sick of any language or culture after such long exposure. anyhow, what makes me tolerate my choice at this point is the sheer dificulty of the language. the more difficult it is, the more rewarding it will be when i master it, and the more rare and valuable my skills will be when i finally master it. below is a quote that i can quite well identify with:

Those who undertake to study the language for any other reason than the sheer joy of it will always be frustrated by the abysmal ratio of effort to effect. Those who are actually attracted to the language precisely because of its daunting complexity and difficulty will never be disappointed. Whatever the reason they started, every single person who has undertaken to study Chinese sooner or later asks themselves "Why in the world am I doing this?" Those who can still remember their original goals will wisely abandon the attempt then and there, since nothing could be worth all that tedious struggle. Those who merely say "I've come this far -- I can't stop now" will have some chance of succeeding, since they have the kind of mindless doggedness and lack of sensible overall perspective that it takes.

i copied this from an article i recently read online (link: http://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html), and i agree with most of what the author writes. read the article if you haven't, it's a good read. i have to add that the commonplace argument of chinese having simple grammar is actually the greatest difficulty i have with the language.

i'm curious to hear more about other people's experiences regarding learning chinese and keeping up your motivation and morale. this topic could be like an AA support group for those who are learning chinese and for whom it is too late to turn back. brethren, do not be afraid to share your stories here

[Yezze]

There are times when i get mad that after three years, i feel like every word in a modern song is new. Also, i go through phases were i won't really do much Chinese for a while, then there are times when i will learn (truly memorize, and add to vocab) 20-30 new words and characters a day (spend 4-6 hours doing Chinese per day, not limited just to the new words), one time which lasted for almost 3 weeks. Those super study bursts, i guess you could say, are often followed by some down time.

[tooironic]

I know how you feel, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any learner who hasn't felt that way from time to time. Your comment about the more difficult the language is, the more rewarding it will be when you master it I think is a really good point. I've studied Mandarin for 12+ years and there are still days when it feels like I know absolutely nothing at all. That being said, I have dabbled in half a dozen other languages over the years, yet I found none of them as fascinating as Chinese, not even close. So it is indeed the case that, whilst Mandarin is quite difficult, that difficulty makes it all the more enticing to learn. Fluency can be reached - it just takes a lot of effort sustained over a number of years. And when you do reach that level the rewards are extremely satisfying in my experience.

[889]

Of course there's often despair. Chinese is no different from any other foreign language. The more you learn the more you realize how little you've learned, and how little you will ever learn.

But study for a while, and you'll find you can cure those blahs by walking into any Chinese restaurant, grabbing the menu, and ordering whatever you want however you want it.

Good food makes a great tonic.

[wushijiao]

I wouldn't say that I've ever "regretted" learning Chinese (when compared to the many joys and happy moments in China and in learning the language), but I have often felt almost excatly the way you described in the post.

For me, however, I think the disappointment/regret was two-fold.

First, there is the obvious (and inevitable) disappointment of having one's level not improve sufficiently quickly. I think the only way to address this is to A) find ways to fuel your original passion, and B ) follow through on practical ways to improve your skills (and note, their are many threads of advice here about how to do that).

The second part of the problem, however, comes from the fact that the language is so intimately linked to one country and culture, and as one gets to know that (or any) country in more depth, I think it's inevitable to develop a certain degree of love-hate relationship with the country/culture. Or, similarly, it's possible to not know exactly what one's role is, as an outsider, in learning the language. I think people like Steve Kaufman have convincingly shown that one should see oneself as a member of the target community (even if they don't see you as one) - in other words, it helps to mentally "go native"- if you want to achieve the best results. On the other hand, you have to deal with the practical reality that you are an outsider laowai - and always will be - no matter what you happen to think. In some cases, it's also possible to project a certain degree of idealism (or something akin to "Chinese patriotism") onto the language and culture, but at the end of the day, I'm not sure how wise that is on a practical and theoretical level. It's probably best to view the country from a neutral observers point of view, but that's not always easy either.

I'm not sure if that last point makes very much sense (or perhaps it's just me). But, I do believe that as time goes on, the problems stemming from that point become less acute, perhaps not unlike leaving one's teens or college years, in a strange way.

[sukitc]

My experience is the exact opposite. I regret NOT majoring in Chinese while at university (20+ years ago) and ended up with a political science degree instead. My regret is that even back then, I enjoyed Chinese considerably more than political science (and got higher marks) but felt that doing a language major was a waste of a university degree (i.e. you could do the same at part-time language schools). Looking back, I believe that I would have enjoyed my four years at university considerably more, had I let my passion dictate my major.

[putonghua73]

I agree wholeheartedly with Sukitc, including the Political Science degree (14 years ago) - except I would now change the degree to Energy or Environmental Engineering, and started learning Chinese many, many years ago. My only regret is that I didn't learn sooner.

That said, I can empathise with your position because:

1. you've been studying full-time for 3 years

2. you may not be actually living in China

If you're not studying or living here in China, then it can be very frustrating because I found it so difficult studying Chinese beyond beginners going to class once a week, 2 hours a week, on top of full-time work, plus studying for my professional qualification whilst living in the UK (English speaking environment). Hence, it's a genuine pleasure living and studying in China [Kunming] for 6 months, without everything else! This sabbatical is well-earned after 14 years of work and office politics.

You have to recognise the signs if you're feeling burnt out, especially if you feel you are making no real progression. Stop and re-examine your original purpose for studying, as well as your learning goals. Does your original purpose still motivate you? Indeed, is your original purpose still valid. If the goal-posts have shifted, then you'll need to evaluate your original motivations and decide if they either need a slight correction or a whole-scale correction.

Do you have a learning plan that allows you to evaluate and measure your progress towards your goals? You may have hit a learning plateau that requires a lot of intense determination and study to break through, and feel as if you are making progress. Your learning plan should have a series of stepping stones that form a path towards your goals, and allow you to measure your progress. "Mastery" of Chinese is a rather formidable goal. Does this mean fluency i.e. native ability? Have you broken the goal into a series of smaller stepping stones?

I too need to evaluate, nay, draft and develop my learning plan because although my motivation is still as high as it ever was (if not higher), I don't feel that I am learning as efficiently or effectively as I could. It's also much easier to tackle goals / problems by breaking them down into bite-size chunks - and it's a good psychological method / trick to maintain enthusiasm and motivation by ticking off actual, honest to God (this coming from an atheist) progress.

Sounds like you need to take a sabbatical and do something else for a few weeks, other than study Chinese. Then go back and re-evaluation your original motivations and learning goals.

Cheers!

[anonymoose]

I started to learn Chinese purely out of curiosity. From having no prior experience, I worked my way through "Basic Chinese: A Grammar and Workbook" by Yip Po-Ching and Don Rimmington. Luckily, this book exactly suited my way of learning, so I was able to progress smoothly and retain interest throughout. (If anyone knows of a book in a similar style for Japanese, I'd be very interested to know.) After completing that book, I thought it would be a shame to stop, so I found some Chinese language exchange partners (which was quite easy at the time, since I was at university), and continued learning using other books and materials I had acquired by then. Nevertheless, being in the UK, I faced the same kind of lack-of-exposure issues as other learners have mentioned, so after graduating I spent a year in Dalian teaching English, and at the same time trying to improve my Chinese as much as possible. I'm quite disciplined, and I think I did manage to make a lot of progress just by practising, even though I didn't attend any formal classes.

Well, after returning to the UK and working for a while, I fortuitously found a proper job in Shanghai, and decided to come back. I have been in Shanghai ever since. As far as progress is going, I'd say my reading, writing and listening have all improved immensely, though I haven't been as satisfied with my speaking. I'm not really sure, other than by persevering, how to improve my spoken Chinese.

I don't know which direction my life would have taken had I not learnt Chinese. All I can say is that I wouldn't be living in China now if I hadn't started learning Chinese. However, some things do frustrate me about living in China, and from that point of view, sometimes I wish I had learnt Japanese instead and could be living in Japan. But do I regret having started learning Chinese? No, I don't. Because, for me, the experience and the sense of achievement is something that adds meaning to life.

[natra]

I like what a lot of members have already said so far, especially putonghua73's advice to you.

I would also say that with learning Chinese, it takes a considerable amount of time to get to the point where you have the essential foundation to begin learning at a faster pace. It may seem like a slow and upward climb, but eventually things will pick up and you will be able to see the results of all your hard work.

With that, here is a chengyu for you to think about:

有志者，事竟成

[songlei]

wushijiao: i think i get what you mean. maybe we have the same problem. let me try to explain. what i find difficult is to take in information that is culturally loaded without passing judgment on it. when you're younger, you sort of take lot's of concepts and ideas the way they are presented to you without asking question. my problem is that with a lot of chinese ideas and concepts i have a feeling of apprehension, i will simply think something like "oh that's so typical and untrue", or "why do they need such imprecise and literary language to make such a simple point". when learning chinese you have to accept that you know as little as a child, while in fact you know a lot more due to your prior education. that causes me to often go into "defense mode". in other words, i'm uncomfortable and embarrassed about the position i'm in vis-a-vis the chinese population, and therefore i find it hard to assume a neutral attitude towards the language and culture, let alone a humble and open one. of course this was different when i just got started. at that point it all seemed wonderful and exciting. but this has worn off, and now i feel it's time to 揭竿而起.

thanks for all the other replies. i'm still quite confident the war will eventually be won. i suppose when you regain the momentum, and all the efforts start to pay off increasingly, it will be smooth sailing toward the end. is there anyone here who is actually thinking of letting it go? or someone who has more or less achieved his or her goals and can share some reflections on the whole journey?

[gato]

Did you know that Yahoo's jerry yang doesn't use capital letters, either?

[wushijiao]

what i find difficult is to take in information that is culturally loaded without passing judgment on it. when you're younger, you sort of take lot's of concepts and ideas the way they are presented to you without asking question. my problem is that with a lot of chinese ideas and concepts i have a feeling of apprehension, i will simply think something like "oh that's so typical and untrue", or "why do they need such imprecise and literary language to make such a simple point". when learning chinese you have to accept that you know as little as a child, while in fact you know a lot more due to your prior education. that causes me to often go into "defense mode". in other words, i'm uncomfortable and embarrassed about the position i'm in vis-a-vis the chinese population, and therefore i find it hard to assume a neutral attitude towards the language and culture, let alone a humble and open one. of course this was different when i just got started. at that point it all seemed wonderful and exciting. but this has worn off, and now i feel it's time to 揭竿而起.

Very well said Songlei. I felt like that many, many times and for many years (although being in HK makes a lot of those issues much less acute). As an adult learner, this will always be one challenge.

I can honestly say that getting interested in Buddhist ideas of non-attachment and trying to observe reality as it exists externally and inside me internally (at the most detailed levels) has been extremely helpful in this regard.

[renzhe]

is there anyone here who is actually thinking of letting it go?

For my part, absolutely not.

It has been frustrating, though. Easily one of the most taxing and challenging things I have done. I'm used to shifting into 5th gear and getting things done quickly. It simply doesn't work with Chinese, and it leads to burning out after seeing how much effort went in and how little I (apparently) got out of it. What helped was restructuring the learning to be more sustainable, more fun, and more aligned with things I enjoy. Music I like, TV shows I enjoy, books that are worth reading. Without being in China, that's the best I can do to simulate some sort of immersion. The "two days before the exam" coffee-loaded blitzkrieg did not work, even when sustained for months.

I think most people can relate to your struggles. Personally, I found that by pushing through (and this involved loads of reading and TV), you can get to the point where you have some sort of a foundation. Though I'm not fluent other than in a very basic sense, I feel that even if I let go today, I'd always keep a basic conversational level of Chinese. In fact, serious studying has been on hold for half a year, but I can still talk, read and understand as before. This is a good feeling, and makes it easy to keep and improve your level through TV, books and other passive materials.

I can't let go. I've invested an equivalent of a university degree into this language. What a waste of time it would be to let go now.

[gato]

Music I like, TV shows I enjoy, books that are worth reading.

Absolutely. I think a key to keeping up the motivation is to identify things you would like to do anyway in your own language and do them in Chinese. If you like punk rock, then by all means listen to Chinese punk rock songs. It doesn't matter that that's out of the mainstream for China. Hey, punk rock is out of the mainstream for almost any place. If you are a die-hard Nietzsche fan, by all means try reading "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" in Chinese. It you like Japanese anime, then try watching Japanese anime dubbed into Chinese. It might just help you to plug along, as opposed to hating whatever else you're forcing yourself to read, listen, or watch just because it happens to be readily available.

[Kenny同志]

Though I was sometimes frustrated by the fact that my progress made was so little compared with the time and energy I invested in English (I spend far more time on English than on polymer science, my major), I truly regret not taking it as my major at university. I started learning the language when I was 12 years old. And from then on down to now, I have been one of the best students in English in my classes. Apparently, my hard work has paid off; however, I have a thought that I will never achieve a native level in that language. My writings, after 12 years of learning, still reveal I am not a native speaker. There’re even many times I can’t figure things out written in English. To my mind, the more you know about a language, the more you realise how little you know about it.

[SiMaKe]

@kenny

First, I had to chuckle at your reference to "polymer science" as I recalled our discussion about "surface modification methods". Didn't know this was your major!

Second, your last statement is close to a universal truth. It even applies to one's own language. I was recently reminded of this when I read a court case where the ruling depended on how one interpreted a series of conjunctive phrases. I had to research the grammar point to fully understand the ruling. (Still not convinced the ruling was correct though :rolleyes:). The point being that even if you are "native", you still don't know it all.

And that's part of the attraction!

BTW, if my Chinese even gets to the level of your English, I'll be one happy camper.

[aristotle1990]

Though I was sometimes frustrated by the fact that my progress made was so little compared with the time and energy I invested in English (I spend far more time on English than on polymer science, my major), I truly regret not taking it as my major at university. I started learning the language when I was 12 years old. And from then on down to now, I have been one of the best students in English in my classes. Apparently, my hard work has paid off; however, I have a thought that I will never have achieved a native level in that language. My writings, after 12 years of learning, still reveal I am not a native speaker. There’re even many times I can’t figure things out written in English. To my mind, the more you know about a language, the more you realise how little you know about it.

Your English is quite good, though. Honestly, there's only one odd sentence in this post ("however, I have a thought that I will never have achieved a native level in that language") that gives it away -- the rest is, without exaggeration, perfectly native. I think people like 赵元任 and Joseph Conrad prove that, with a lot of hard work, it is possible for foreigners to achieve a native level in writing English (and Chinese, though with the possible exception of 利玛窦, I'm not sure if this has ever been done before).

[Kenny同志]

SiMaKe, you can do it. I think if 大山 talks to me without my seeing his face, I would be absolutely convinced he is a Chinese native.

Thanks for your compliment and pointing out my hole, Aristotle. I will keep improving my English.



[tooironic]

What is comes down to is hard work and confidence. With those two factors you can achieve what you want to achieve in not just learning but also using the language you learn. Unfortunately the myth of the superiority of the "native speaker" still exists and unnecessarily hampers with learners' linguistic performances. I mean, I'm a native speaker with an English degree and a Master's in translation and even my writing looks awkward from time to time. This post for example could be improved and made smoother but alas it's early in the morning and I CBF. But because I'm a native speaker few would question it. It's an annoying double standard but, on the other hand, criticism is an important way to make you aware of your own shortcomings and improve your communication skills in that language.

[carlo]

I only started learning Japanese after years in China, sometimes I wonder what my life would have been like had the order been reversed. I might not have had the same number of job opportunities, but might have earned more and had a healthier lifestyle. Although I almost started Arabic while at university, so I’m not in a position to complain.

I don’t think I’ve ever seriously thought about giving up, but I’ve often thought, ok, enough. Let’s move on. As “native”level is all but out of mortal reach, the utility of marginal improvement diminishes as your proficiency increases. So what I find progressively harder, with time, is to keep myself awake two extra hours a day to learn some obscure Chinese idiom that many Chinese don’t use anyway. Most of my later learning has been passive, picking up stuff from casual reading and listening. This, frankly, is a way of giving up: you get used to whatever skills you have to “function”in the community you live in and don’t ask for anything better.