TCM disagreement with girlfriend

[morpheus]

Hello all, my girlfriend is Chinese and she is friends with a Traditional Chinese Medicine practitioner. When I was in China my girlfriend practically tricked me into taking some antibiotics for a common cold (which was a little bad at the time), which got me very angry. I told her how using antibiotics for that is a real problem in the world and it isn't something to play with. She got very defensive and insisted that it was commonly used in China (which is irrelevant) and also recommended by her friend. I explained that if you go to any hospital here, you will see signs on the wall (addressed to the public) saying specifically to avoid using antibiotics for colds and small health problems. Westerners (not Chinese) invented the substances and established their appropriate usage. None of this seemed to make her understand, she just kind of gave up the argument without being convinced she was wrong.

That problem is mostly history, but occasionally she mentions her friend's advice. I have almost no respect for her friend's TCM education. I'm a very scientifically-minded person (in career also), and TCM seems to me to be more of a religion than science. Some stuff is probably effective (since exercising, eating vegetables and balancing your food is good, and some herbs have very obvious effects), but TCM knowledge is incomplete and potentially dangerous to those who believe in it too much. What my girlfriend's friend prescribed with those antibiotics was ill-advised, and could have made things worse. Abuse of antibiotics is bad for society, as any informed person knows.

Have you guys with Chinese spouses got any experience with this type of issue? I could use some fresh advice, I think. I get the feeling that this might erupt into a culture war between us, since TCM is tied to her culture and her background is in the liberal arts and not the sciences. But I don't want to have to change my whole life to adapt to some superstition or have one of us get messed up either.

[rezaf]

There was a similar argument about TCM a while ago which didn't lead to any where so perhaps it's better to avoid this subject cuz none of you is able to prove his or her point to the other. You can find scientific evidence on the internet that proves TCM is more effective than placebo and western medicine in many cases. In my experience there are many people who believe in TCM without knowing about it's theory which as you say is like a religion but is based on it's practical effects and there are people who claim that TCM is supperstition (again) without knowing about it's theory and usually without any practical experience which is also like a religion. People from these two groups have no first hand information about TCM therefore can not really prove anything. If you are interested in knowing more about TCM you should start reading books about TCM theory as well as practising qigong and meditation and also some clinical experience, then you can decide for yourself if it's real or not otherwise your conclusions are based on lack of knowledge and therefore are categorised as superstition regardless of being for or against TCM.

[doraemon]

Wait a minute, sorry if I sound a bit ignorant but if your girlfriend's friend is a Traditional Chinese Medicine practitioner, why didn't the friend tell your girlfriend to tell you (wow, that was long-winded) to try traditional ways of curing a common cold such as drinking 板蓝根 or taking 维C银翘片 which are perfectly harmless and have no side-effects? Or is TCM the name of an institution or something?

[gougou]

The comparison to religion is interesting - if your girlfriend told you she believed in god, would you try arguing against it?

A lot of good can come from both believing in god and in TCM, I believe, just as a lot of bad can come from either when done blindly. I strongly agree with you that the use of antibiotics should be kept to a minimum, and I also have trouble believing that this is actually a part of TCM. Maybe you could find a more informed source than your girlfriend's friend, or a book that she will accept as a source, that says the opposite?

[gato]

It's better to leave it alone. It's like arguing about one's taste in music. Better not to touch it if you don't want to cause a ruckus.

Much of medicine, be it traditional Chinese or Western, is still guesswork. For many "Western" medications, we still do not know how or why they work, though from controlled studies, it appears that they do work, on a statistical basis. This state of knowledge is probably only slightly better than that for traditional Chinese medicine. Of course, the same controlled studies can be done to assess the effectiveness of traditional Chinese herbal medicine, and as the Chinese pharmaceutical industry becomes more regulated, such testings will probably become more prevalent.

[morpheus]

If you are interested in knowing more about TCM you should start reading books about TCM theory as well as practising qigong and meditation and also some clinical experience, then you can decide for yourself if it's real or not otherwise your conclusions are based on lack of knowledge and therefore are categorised as superstition regardless of being for or against TCM.

Actually I have several books on TCM and qigong, and let's just say I'm not very impressed. Like I said, a balanced diet and exercise combined with stress reduction will go a long way toward promoting health. Also, some herbs are useful. But if someone has a serious problem, TCM may not help and might cause them to forgo proven Western treatments.

The comparison to religion is interesting - if your girlfriend told you she believed in god, would you try arguing against it?

I would, because I'm essentially an atheist (after years of being tied up with religion and other superstition). Just how much I would argue depends on what she was believing. Fortunately she does not appear to be so afflicted.

I strongly agree with you that the use of antibiotics should be kept to a minimum, and I also have trouble believing that this is actually a part of TCM. Maybe you could find a more informed source than your girlfriend's friend, or a book that she will accept as a source, that says the opposite?

I could cite top scientific journals like Nature and Science, if I could get her to listen, lol. I think I have a couple of articles saved from a couple of years ago. Maybe it's just a Chinese thing instead of a TCM thing, but my girlfriend says she was recommended to do that nonetheless. Supposedly this woman has a degree in TCM. Her husband takes great pride in that, even.

Wait a minute, sorry if I sound a bit ignorant but if your girlfriend's friend is a Traditional Chinese Medicine practitioner, why didn't the friend tell your girlfriend to tell you (wow, that was long-winded) to try traditional ways of curing a common cold such as drinking 板蓝根 or taking 维C银翘片 which are perfectly harmless and have no side-effects? Or is TCM the name of an institution or something?

No, I don't count that as ignorant. I'm not sure why her friend suggested that besides the fact that antibiotics in China can be bought as readily as Tic-Tacs. Actually, her friend is totally in favor of using knock-off Western medicines. If that means she isn't a TCM purist, then it is what it is.

For many "Western" medications, we still do not know how or why they work, though from controlled studies, it appears that they do work, on a statistical basis. This state of knowledge is probably only slightly better than that for traditional Chinese medicine.

You're incorrect here. The world scientific community is much more informed than the TCM community because it is based on established knowledge of chemistry, biology, as well as controlled clinical studies. What does TCM have? Yin, Yang, Qi, Heat, the five tastes, etc. Again, I think TCM might have something to it, but not more than Ayurvedic medicine or any similar "system". TCM is not total nonsense because people would (should) discover that. If it's even partially effective, people will take that as it's better than nothing. We now have the formal scientific method, so we should dispense with the nonsense once and for all.

[dumdumdum]

taking antibotics for every small illness is common in china cos they have the scale to make it cheap. they did it since young. as they grew up the common antibiotics got less and less effective cos they took too much of it, and they had to go to the really expensive(and sometimes 'dangerous') drug. this is a really bad situation but they dont understand it.

as for chinese medicine, those prepared ones are actually 'western medicine'(the chinese called it 中西医结合 simple translated would be 'unified application of chinese and western medicine'). check the packing for wadever 板蓝根 or 银翘片 in the drug store, they mixed some western drug in it and it is the western drug that is doing the job most of the time. i'm not saying that TCM is not good, but TCM operate on a case to case basis. every person got his illness from different ways and they have different physical conditions, the real TCM had to deal with all these separately, not one-drug-cure-all situation. for that it'll take a longer time (but 'possibly' less side effects) to cure. in modern days people wouldnt have the time for all these slo-mo thing.

i believe (but not so sure) the only place with relatively authentic TCM drugs would be Hong Kong. but i'm not sure how well they fare under chinese economic pressure.

my girlfriend will be graduating from TCM university in china next summer. they have in fact quite a few branches. traditional medical science, herbal medicine, accupunture and massage are the 3 main ones. imo 'acupunture and massage' is the safer one cos they dont make you eat anything. but of cos you still have to differentiate the techniques between those in massage parlours, which are for leisure and relax, and those in hospitals purely for recovery from illness.

[sebhk]

When I was in China my girlfriend practically tricked me into taking some antibiotics for a common cold (which was a little bad at the time), which got me very angry.

Let me ask the obvious: What does taking antibiotics have to do with Traditional Chinese Medicine???

Real TCM doctors would never suggest to use antibiotics or any other Western drugs to cure a cold. This is not how TCM works. The concept of one type medicine(s) for one kind of illness(es) does not really exist in TCM. Rather it focuses on improving the current state of an individual's body and wellness. In fact, TCM is not as much about curing illnesses than it is about helping people to deal with symptoms (for example relieve pain, improve blood circulation etc).

In Hong Kong, TCM is sometimes used in addition to "Western" treatments. For example, if someone has cancer that person will get chemotherapy to fight the illness, and see a TCM practitioner in addition reduce the impact of side effects caused by the therapy.

The problem you describe does not really sound like an issue of Western Medicine vs Traditional Chinese Medicine. It sounds more like your girlfriend and that that "practitioner" don't understand both.

[rezaf]

Actually I have several books on TCM and qigong, and let's just say I'm not very impressed. Like I said, a balanced diet and exercise combined with stress reduction will go a long way toward promoting health. Also, some herbs are useful. But if someone has a serious problem, TCM may not help and might cause them to forgo proven Western treatments.

I also have read three books about quantum physics, maybe I am ready to start making my own theories.

would, because I'm essentially an atheist (after years of being tied up with religion and other superstition). Just how much I would argue depends on what she was believing. Fortunately she does not appear to be so afflicted.

And how being an atheist is scientific? If you had said agnostic it would have made some sense but how can you prove that there is no God? It's interesting how people easily consider their lack of knowledge as science.

I could cite top scientific journals like Nature and Science, if I could get her to listen, lol. I think I have a couple of articles saved from a couple of years ago. Maybe it's just a Chinese thing instead of a TCM thing, but my girlfriend says she was recommended to do that nonetheless. Supposedly this woman has a degree in TCM. Her husband takes great pride in that, even.

People in China sometimes do that but it doesn't have Anything to do with TCM!!! TCM is very much against antibiotics unless it is a very complicated bacterial disease and for your information TCM doctors in China also study some western medicine especially in terms of diagnosis and know when they should refer the patient to a western medicine doctor.

You're incorrect here. The world scientific community is much more informed than the TCM community because it is based on established knowledge of chemistry, biology, as well as controlled clinical studies. What does TCM have? Yin, Yang, Qi, Heat, the five tastes, etc. Again, I think TCM might have something to it, but not more than Ayurvedic medicine or any similar "system". TCM is not total nonsense because people would (should) discover that. If it's even partially effective, people will take that as it's better than nothing. We now have the formal scientific method, so we should dispense with the nonsense once and for all.

I think you don't have information about neither western nor eastern medicine and your blind faith in western medicine comes from that. Both systems are struggling very hard to know more about the human body and both have a very long way to go or we wouldn't have so many patients dieing everyday with all the technology available. Personally I think it's ignorance to call old and complicated eastern systems that have proven to be useful for thousands of years as nonsense without enough knowledge.

[anonymoose]

Did you have any tests done to see what was casuing your "common cold"? Common colds are due to viral infections, not bacteria, and therefore antibiotics would be completely ineffective.

Both systems are struggling very hard to know more about the human body and both have a very long way to go or we wouldn't have so many patients dieing everyday with all the technology available.

Unless you believe in eternal life, then this statement is inaccurate. The best that medicine can do is cure an illness, and prolong life, but sooner or later, everyone will die of something, so the number of patients dying cannot be used as a measure of efficacity of medicine. What you really need to consider is average age of patients who die, end even then, that is ignoring other factors such as quality of life, and so on.

[jbradfor]

I also have read three books about quantum physics, maybe I am ready to start making my own theories.

Go for it!

If you can find cases in which current theory does not explain the natural world well, and you can develop new theories that explain known phenomenon better, is testable, and ideally predicts things that are currently unknown and true out to be true, then by all means propose your theory. If it seems better, then likely it will become accepted over time.

This is one area in which TCM differs significantly from quantum physics.

[dumdumdum]

And how being an atheist is scientific? If you had said agnostic it would have made some sense but how can you prove that there is no God? It's interesting how people easily consider their lack of knowledge as science.

the OP is just giving a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question. it doesnt say anything about aethists being 'scientific'. and since you mentioned being 'scientific' a few times, maybe we look into some standards that defines what is 'scientific'.

the obvious one would be 'similiar results can be repeatedly obtained given the same methods, conditions and apparatus', in this case TCM is hardly one, same thing as Qigong. every case is individual, and there are times where similiar cases cannot be solved by the same methods. even you said that 'there are times TCM...', its not consistent.

the second one would be, scientific theories can be proven correct or wrong under the same given condition, or correct under a given condition and wrong in other conditions. proving a theory wrong doesnt make it less scientific, but is in fact a scientific approach. science developed becos we kept proving earlier theories wrong. superstitions dont, they stayed in the middle ages.

when something doesnt allow people to prove it wrong. that's being superstitious, it doesnt necessarily have to be a religion. just like OP's girlfriend refused to accept that 'taking antibiotics for every single illness is a bad idea', she came out with something defensive such as 'chinese is differnt from white men', which is totally unrelated to the subject. thats being superstitious, strongly believing in something without logic or evidence.

saying TCM is 'not scientific' doesnt mean that it is 'not effective'. just that it doesnt fall into the quantitative or qualitative category of 'being scientific'. it could still be effective, at least 'sometimes', unless someone can prove that it is 'totally ineffective'. in fact there are probably millions who claimed that they are cured by TCM, but a systematic approach is required to make it 'scientific', not 'my third uncle's cousin's boyfriend say it's effective' kinda thing.

a simple example, for TCM pills and drug, most if not all that are sold in mainland china had some kind of western drug contents. now how are the TCM drug makers going to prove that their drug is effective? how are they going to take credit when it is obvious a non-TCM ingredient is present in their drugs? the worse part is, these non-TCM contents are not some un-related catalysts or sweeteners to make the drug taste good, these non-TCM ingredients are usually known to treat the illness these 'TCM drugs' are supposed to cure. i think it doesnt take rocket science knowledge to link these things up.

[morpheus]

I also have read three books about quantum physics, maybe I am ready to start making my own theories.

Nice try. If you truly have knowledge about the scientific method and mathematics and quantum physics, then I think you will not be totally wasting your time to think about your own theories.

And how being an atheist is scientific? If you had said agnostic it would have made some sense but how can you prove that there is no God? It's interesting how people easily consider their lack of knowledge as science.

I don't need to prove anything, at least not at the outset. That's called taking the null hypothesis. Excuse me if this is too pointed, but if you want people to believe in an omnipotent yet equally undetectable invisible god, then it's up to you to produce testable evidence for that. And if you assert that said god is not invisible, you have to produce evidence for that as well. The same scientific reasoning is why people don't believe in aliens, ghosts, dowsing, omens, psychics, etc. I could claim to have an agnostic-like position about those as well and I'm sure it would make lots of people feel better about me, but I consider the state of my information about those things good enough to confidently assert that they are (most probably) bogus.

People in China sometimes do that but it doesn't have Anything to do with TCM!!! TCM is very much against antibiotics unless it is a very complicated bacterial disease and for your information TCM doctors in China also study some western medicine especially in terms of diagnosis and know when they should refer the patient to a western medicine doctor.

The woman didn't even look at me (she couldn't, she was on the other side of the planet), yet she recommended antibiotics because that's truly the Chinese way of doing things. How's that for diagnosis?

Did you have any tests done to see what was casuing your "common cold"? Common colds are due to viral infections, not bacteria, and therefore antibiotics would be completely ineffective.

Of course I did not have any test done. It is generally accepted that common colds are due to viruses as a rule of thumb. That's why I was angry about the antibiotics when I found out.

I think you don't have information about neither western nor eastern medicine and your blind faith in western medicine comes from that. Both systems are struggling very hard to know more about the human body and both have a very long way to go or we wouldn't have so many patients dieing everyday with all the technology available. Personally I think it's ignorance to call old and complicated eastern systems that have proven to be useful for thousands of years as nonsense without enough knowledge.

My trust of Western medicine is far from "blind faith". The Western pharmaceutical industry operates by scientific research, which means their results must be repeatable and non-trivial before they get the right to market their products. After reading TCM textbooks, I have concluded that the TCM folks will need to try MUCH harder to understand anything about the human body, if that's even possible for them, because they have to reconcile everything with their ill-defined ancient ideas (which were conceived long before microscopes, X-rays, and other basic diagnostic equipment). It's common for people in debates like this to try to drag all of science down to the same level as pseudoscience because science is wrong sometimes, but doing so is unjustified.

[dumdumdum]

Let me ask the obvious: What does taking antibiotics have to do with Traditional Chinese Medicine???

Real TCM doctors would never suggest to use antibiotics or any other Western drugs to cure a cold. This is not how TCM works. The concept of one type medicine(s) for one kind of illness(es) does not really exist in TCM. Rather it focuses on improving the current state of an individual's body and wellness. In fact, TCM is not as much about curing illnesses than it is about helping people to deal with symptoms (for example relieve pain, improve blood circulation etc).

it sometimes happens, TCM referring patients to western medical treatments. catching a cold is unusual case though.

the primary weakness of TCM in present day (i dont know how it was like in ancient times) is that TCM cannot handle emergencies very well. acute pain, loss of blood, internal bleeding, acute fever and such, they have to refer the patients to a proper hospital. but it is known to be effective against some long term diseases, certain types of cancer etc. it is also known for its preventive approach against illness. it has both its limitations and effectiveness. got to see the bigger picture.

[morpheus]

I didn't exactly mean for this to turn into a discussion about TCM, but I suppose it's necessary to explain why I don't like that kind of idea. The main thing is I don't want her friend to interfere in our lives. If I tell her that, I think she would just stop mentioning where she learns the ridiculous things she gets from her friend. My girlfriend tends to trick me so she can do what she thinks is best.

I'm starting to think that part of our difficulties arise from the way I tell her things (perhaps she thinks she loses face when I disagree with her directly), and the way the Chinese think white lies are acceptable. So far, this has been more or less an annoyance. But I don't think that tendency is safe in general.

it sometimes happens' date=' TCM referring patients to western medical treatments. catching a cold is unusual case though.[/quote']

It was a little unusual. I needed to leave in a week so my girlfriend was afraid I might get quarantined in China on my way out.

[rezaf]

As I said it's uselss to even try to prove something like this to someone who doesn't have the necessary theoritical and practical experience about TCM and continues giving theories without the proper knowledge but because of the similarity I would like to know why you think being an atheist is scientific.

The only way that you can give a thesis about the existance of something is when you are at a higher level comparing to the definition that you have for that thing. For example to prove that there is an apple on the table you can see it's shape and it's colour, also you can grab it and touch it in your hand. To prove that the earth is round you can send a spaceship, take photoes and see it for yourself. According to the definition God is the creator of the world and therefore knows all the knowledge about the world and exists in everything in the universe. Your claim about knowing that God doesn't exist means that you have at least all the knowledge about this universe and at the very least you have seen everything in this universe. Do you think that you have that kind of knowledge all by yourself or do you think that you can confidently assert that you are (most probably) close to that kind of knowledge? :huh:

[renzhe]

It usually helps to define the terms being discussed.

For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism has an overview of different types of atheism, and I have yet to find a definition of TCM which involves antibiotics.

Do you think that you have that kind of knowledge all by yourself or do you think that you can confidently assert that you are (most probably) close to that kind of knowledge?

He's probably simply applying the Occam's razor.

[jbradfor]

Have you guys with Chinese spouses got any experience with this type of issue? I could use some fresh advice, I think. I get the feeling that this might erupt into a culture war between us, since TCM is tied to her culture and her background is in the liberal arts and not the sciences. But I don't want to have to change my whole life to adapt to some superstition or have one of us get messed up either.

I think rezaf's responses are the answer you are looking for: no, there is absolutely no way to change your girlfriend's mind on this, because you two are starting with different assumptions. You (and I for that matter) start with a western scientific viewpoint: assuming that what can be experienced can be explained to everyone, in which theories need to be tested before they are accepted. rezaf, and I presume your girlfriend, start with different assumptions: there are phenomenon that exist that are beyond our normal understanding but are none-the-less true, and a reliance on past authorities.

One more reason you are not going to change her mind: she has a good friend that is an "expert" in TCM and believes in it. While everyone does this to some extent, and of course I'm generalizing here, but I think it's generally true that Chinese more than westerners rely on the "authority" of friends and family (i.e. people they trust) more than the "authority" of experts. So in a battle between the advice of a friend/family versus the advice of the experts, a Chinese person is more likely to pick the former, a westerner is more likely to pick the latter. So all the studies and experts you find will not win in a battle against the opinion of a good friend.

All I can recommend is that you take care of yourself and be careful what medical advice you receive from her.

[morpheus]

As I said it's uselss to even try to prove something like this to someone who doesn't have the necessary theoritical and practical experience about TCM and continues giving theories without the proper knowledge

Then why do you expect anyone to take the claims of TCM seriously? It's just medicine. It can be studied like anything else.

... but because of the similarity I would like to know why you think being an atheist is scientific.

I just said it. Maybe this moderation/review period for new members is messing up our flow. Look up and you'll see I addressed all your issues, except for a few niggling points:

The only way that you can give a thesis about the existance of something is when you are at a higher level comparing to the definition that you have for that thing. For example to prove that there is an apple on the table you can see it's shape and it's colour, also you can grab it and touch it in your hand. To prove that the earth is round you can send a spaceship, take photoes and see it for yourself.

Or you can use mathematics to prove the earth is round like the ancient Greeks did. Whatever method you use, it needs to be repeatable and observable.

According to the definition God is the creator of the world and therefore knows all the knowledge about the world and exists in everything in the universe. Your claim about knowing that God doesn't exist means that you have at least all the knowledge about this universe and at the very least you have seen everything in this universe. Do you think that you have that kind of knowledge all by yourself or do you think that you can confidently assert that you are (most probably) close to that kind of knowledge?

I take exception to the way you're simplifying the definition of "god". Arguing about that will not be necessary however. Just because we can dream of an idea or object doesn't mean it exists. We have a definition for leprechauns and ghosts too, no? Do you believe in those things, or will you demand reams of proof along with video footage? It doesn't matter whether you've seen every haunted house or the end of every rainbow, etc. At some point you will say enough is enough, and demand extraordinary evidence for those fantastic claims. That is all most atheists are doing. Atheism isn't some kind of claim to have extraordinary knowledge, it's a firm belief that religious people have no extraordinary knowledge. Why? Because they're just people, with two eyes and two ears just like us.

Let me tell you, I have a new theory of gravity. Here it goes: There are trillions of tiny invisible undetectable fairies that control the movement of all objects in the universe, down to the atomic level. How do I know this? I have faith, brother, and that gives me lots of comfort in my life. Just try and prove me wrong. Wherever you look, the fairies are not there because they're invisible and endowed with super magical powers. Are you convinced? You are applying the same kind of reasoning to me, and yet I suspect you will never realize that as long as we're talking about it.

It usually helps to define the terms being discussed.

For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism has an overview of different types of atheism, and I have yet to find a definition of TCM which involves antibiotics.

Right, I mentioned TCM because I think it's largely bogus and this practitioner counts herself qualified to prescribe all kinds of Western medication without proper training. She has demonstrated this very clearly now.

[dumdumdum]

As I said it's uselss to even try to prove something like this to someone who doesn't have the necessary theoritical and practical experience about TCM and continues giving theories without the proper knowledge but because of the similarity I would like to know why you think being an atheist is scientific.

The only way that you can give a thesis about the existance of something is when you are at a higher level comparing to the definition that you have for that thing. For example to prove that there is an apple on the table you can see it's shape and it's colour, also you can grab it and touch it in your hand. To prove that the earth is round you can send a spaceship, take photoes and see it for yourself. According to the definition God is the creator of the world and therefore knows all the knowledge about the world and exists in everything in the universe. Your claim about knowing that God doesn't exist means that you have at least all the knowledge about this universe and at the very least you have seen everything in this universe. Do you think that you have that kind of knowledge all by yourself or do you think that you can confidently assert that you are (most probably) close to that kind of knowledge?

what proper knowledge do you need, in order to explain the existance of western medical ingredients in packaged TCM drugs? a full 20 page thesis?

only according to 'religious definitions' god or some deities are the creators of any- or every- thing. it is not a 'univerasal truth'. anyway, if you think god is higher level than humans, how do you explain whether you know its there or its not there? do you claim that you have all the knowledge about god to define its existance? i can tell you straight in the face, no you dont. if you cant even fully understand a thing, since it, if it exists, is supposedly being higher level than you, how are you going to convince people that you know it is there? you are only as good as the aetheist you're trying to put down.