TCM disagreement with girlfriend

[morpheus]

if you cant even fully understand a thing, since it, if it exists, is supposedly being higher level than you, how are you going to convince people that you know it is there? you are only as good as the aetheist you're trying to put down.

Good point. If something is invisible and incomprehensible, there's no basis for talking about it. In fact, it's a waste of time to build new ideas on these kinds of speculations. Rejecting them is totally natural and justified.

I think rezaf's responses are the answer you are looking for: no, there is absolutely no way to change your girlfriend's mind on this, because you two are starting with different assumptions.

I was afraid of that kind of outcome. Actually people change their assumptions on their own, but they will resist logical discussion about them. People sometimes realize they're wrong but they remain in denial to "save face", like the Chinese. At least there's no spiritual aspect to TCM, so there will be no part of that which makes a virtue out of "faith" in that stuff.

All I can recommend is that you take care of yourself and be careful what medical advice you receive from her.

I have always been careful, but I have to be doubly careful now. Last time I thought I was taking something like aspirin and it turned out to be antibiotic. At least she won't be able to get it so easily after she gets out of China (unless her friend supplies her with Chinese imports ).

[rezaf]

Then why do you expect anyone to take the claims of TCM seriously? It's just medicine. It can be studied like anything else.

I only expect people who have proper training in TCM trheory and qigong to take it seriously. Of course the practcal part and the theoritical part can be studied but you can't give any scientific theory about it being true or false before doing that. As I understand you claim that you have the proper theoritical and practical training in TCM and qigong, right?

[roddy]

Does the Art of War have anything in it about not going round in circles? Something along the lines of wiser generals having better things to do?

Tell your girlfriend not to lie to you about tablets and leave it at that. Until she wants to treat your children's appendicitis with sharpened cocktail sticks you're better off letting this be one of the battles you don't pick.

[dumdumdum]

I only expect people who have proper training in TCM trheory and qigong to take it seriously. Of course the practcal part and the theoritical part can be studied but you can't give any scientific theory about it being true or false before doing that. As I understand you claim that you have the proper theoritical and practical training in TCM and qigong, right?

oh please, you dont have to be a professional thief or conman to know someone is ripping you off. this is not a 'moral battle' where only the holy guy's word is final.

yes, when i accuse someone being immoral i'd better be a morally sound fella. but when i say some of the TCM thingy is actually not TCM cos there is obvious non-TCM ingredients in it, it is printed on the packing and the dosage instructions, it's a no-brainer. do you know how many types of TCM drug was banned across the world every year becos of excessive mercury or lead contents? same thing for chinese tea leaves with excessive pesticides. 'Traditional' Chinese Medicine, get it? if it is not 'traditional' it is not traditional, simple as ABC.

[morpheus]

oh please, you dont have to be a professional thief or conman to know someone is ripping you off. this is not a 'moral battle' where only the holy guy's word is final.

My thoughts exactly. There is no refuge to be had here in declaring that we must have "faith" or supernatural knowledge for TCM to work, for example.

I only expect people who have proper training in TCM trheory and qigong to take it seriously. Of course the practcal part and the theoritical part can be studied but you can't give any scientific theory about it being true or false before doing that.

Actually, one can give a hypothesis with very little knowledge. All we need is something general. You claim TCM is good for something, so we could read and consult TCM people and find something specific. We could then commission a series of massive studies on TCM today if we had tons of money and wanted to waste it. If TCM is useful then I'm sure you will agree that its effects should not be difficult to observe in the slightest way. We know MORE than thousands of years ago, not less.

As I understand you claim that you have the proper theoritical and practical training in TCM and qigong, right?

I don't have a degree in that, but I have seen enough after flipping through the textbooks I have. I am a scientist and I can spot the unscientific when I see it, and I regard all such discoveries as highly suspect if they are not verified by the scientific method.

Someone remarked that TCM is not considered good for emergencies. There's a very good reason for that: emergency situations provide immediate falsification for any nonsense treatments. Long-term effects are much more difficult to observe, so they are more likely to be believable. It's like you will never see a religious faith healer cure someone's amputated arm ... they always choose something the crowd can't diagnose by seeing, like paralysis, cancer, or mental disease. The reason for that is that they are scam artists. I'm not saying TCM is generally done by scam artists, but you will see that people adopt the same approaches because it keeps them from having to confront obvious problems with their views.

Tell your girlfriend not to lie to you about tablets and leave it at that. Until she wants to treat your children's appendicitis with sharpened cocktail sticks you're better off letting this be one of the battles you don't pick.

I suppose you're right. I also don't think she's that backward, but I've seen people adopt some very strange ideas before.

[yonglin]

Just wanted to chime in that antibiotics are overprescribed in most places all over the world (including Europe, Canada, US), so I'm not quite sure what the deal is.

Also, Chinese TCM practitioners have training in western medicine as well, so it's not very strange that they would opt for western medicine if they considered TCM insufficient.

[morpheus]

Just wanted to chime in that antibiotics are overprescribed in most places all over the world (including Europe, Canada, US), so I'm not quite sure what the deal is.

I would argue that the degree of overuse depends on the region, and that China has one of the highest rates. In the US, a common person can't buy a single tablet of antibiotics without a prescription. In China, you can buy a case at a time if you have the money for it, no questions asked. And low doses of antibiotics are prescribed for simple ailments which would probably get better on their own. There are degrees of abuse, and China seems to be one of the worst areas for that.

Also, Chinese TCM practitioners have training in western medicine as well, so it's not very strange that they would opt for western medicine if they considered TCM insufficient.

If they opt for it and prescribe powerful drugs, they should be expert. Taking a course on Western medicine at a TCM school, taught by a TCM instructor, isn't going to give them much knowledge about how to use Western medicine.

[rezaf]

I don't have a degree in that, but I have seen enough after flipping through the textbooks I have. I am a scientist and I can spot the unscientific when I see it, and I regard all such discoveries as highly suspect if they are not verified by the scientific method.

I am sure as a scientist you know that flipping through a few books doesn't make you an expert in any branch of science. It takes many years of hard work to achieve the knowledge in one field. The problem with TCM textbooks is that it hasn't been a long time since people have started gathering this knowledge from all over China and making it a systematic academic major. That's why studying with a proper laozhongyi is still the best way of learning TCM alongside going to school. Another fact is that most of the theoretical base of TCM comes from qigong and daoism. Qigong is not something that you can learn by flipping through some books. It takes decades of practise to master a small part of it and unfortunately they don't teach it properly in TCM universities and only very few students spend enough time and energy to learn it with proper masters. So agree that as an academic major TCM needs more refinement but as someone practises qigong and meditation and is learning the practical aspects of the philosophy behind TCM I don't find it bogus at all. If you are a scientist I suggest that you keep your theories and claims to the areas that you actually have information about.

If they opt for it and prescribe powerful drugs, they should be expert. Taking a course on Western medicine at a TCM school, taught by a TCM instructor, isn't going to give them much knowledge about how to use Western medicine.

The courses are mostly about diagnosis so that we can do the right tests and refer the patients if necessary and in TCM hospitals doctors who can prescribe western medicine are trained in western medicine for their postgraduate degrees. Those who just continue studying TCM work in zhongyi neike and only use herbal medicine.

[dumdumdum]

Just wanted to chime in that antibiotics are overprescribed in most places all over the world (including Europe, Canada, US), so I'm not quite sure what the deal is.

it could be so. but we can spot a difference here. most of the non-chinese replying to this knows the dark side of antibiotics. it could be so in everybody's home country, but at least we are given the info or even educated about such things.

obviously the chinese in general arent. not putting up a comparison cos no matter what they are a developing country, still have room to catch up. but this is a factual difference.

Also, Chinese TCM practitioners have training in western medicine as well, so it's not very strange that they would opt for western medicine if they considered TCM insufficient.

yup finally someone touching the core of the problem. TCM is no doubt a chinese thing. the problem is some of the elements were lost and the chinese cant rebuild the system. what is worse, TCM still has some of its inherent weakness besides being incomplete. even if the theories are complete they still have to overcome these inherent weakness, one of them being unable to tackle emergencies.

the chinese govt had no choice but to bring in western medical science to complement it. in all proper TCM institutions in china, students are required to learn modern phamacology, pathology, anatomy and other western medical knowledge. they have to learn english too. they called this '中西医结合'. now this thing is not TCM from the very beginning. of cos the chinese can act head-strong and come out with their own medical standards, but that would take a long time for the world to examine and accept. too bad the leaders are very keen on getting international recognition, something had to be done. besides, who will the leaders and celebs go to when they are sick? TCM? no way. hence they have to keep in-line with western medical stardards as close as possible.

so how come the TCM pills have western medicine in it? becos this is a typical 'admin interfering with academic research' situation. the govt is promoting 'TCM and western medicine collaboration', you go pure TCM you are not going to get funds for you research. your proposal might not even get a green light to go ahead. so everyone try to add something 'western' inside their projects in order to get approval. but what to add? you cant add something that contradicts the original healing effects, so lets add something that is doing the same job. double guarantee. and there goes our TCM drug.

such scenarios, however, cannot prove that TCM is bull. the 'real' TCM could still be pretty effective, but too bad in reality we are not going to see a lot of it. the ideal TCM is not easily accessible. the debate actually stems from whether people are talking about TCM in a perfect world or the real deal we are looking at everyday.

[dumdumdum]

I am sure as a scientist you know that flipping through a few books doesn't make you an expert in any branch of science. It takes many years of hard work to achieve the knowledge in one field. The problem with TCM textbooks is that it hasn't been a long time since people have started gathering this knowledge from all over China and making it a systematic academic major. That's why studying with a proper laozhongyi is still the best way of learning TCM alongside going to school. Another fact is that most of the theoretical base of TCM comes from qigong and daoism. Qigong is not something that you can learn by flipping through some books. It takes decades of practise to master a small part of it and unfortunately they don't teach it properly in TCM universities and only very few students spend enough time and energy to learn it with proper masters. So agree that as an academic major TCM needs more refinement but as someone practises qigong and meditation and is learning the practical aspects of the philosophy behind TCM I don't find it bogus at all. If you are a scientist I suggest that you keep your theories and claims to the areas that you actually have information about.

what you said simply put TCM and Qigong in the bad light.

theories incomplete, results cannot be repeated, learning curve is steep and time consuming and not easily achievable, and not very efficient. now do you agree that it is not 'scientific'? how can something with a incomplete theory claimed itself to be effective? whats worse, you are saying that the younger TCM practitioners are crappy, only the old physicians are trustworthy. then? are you saying TCM in general is a scam in china?

and who told you Qigong has to be difficult? it is not. the only thing it requires is continuous, daily practice. you dont have to spend hours everyday, 15 mins or 1/2 an hour will do. but do it consistently. you are again presenting your superstitions, that TCM or Qigong can only be master through the hard way. and this goes on to show that you knew little about it cos you knew only one way to do it. 1 + 4 would give you 5, 2 + 3 would give you the same thing. there is more than one way to get things done, and some things arent difficult at all if you just put away your prejudices.

[morpheus]

I am sure as a scientist you know that flipping through a few books doesn't make you an expert in any branch of science. It takes many years of hard work to achieve the knowledge in one field.

Sorry if I was too casual by saying I "flipped through" a few books. I mean to say I read a few chapters out of each, particularly the ones dealing with theory. Also, total knowledge of a field is not necessary to conclude that it is unreliable. The problems with TCM start at a very basic level so I don't feel compelled to become an expert in that. If I would, guys like you would just claim that I'm not a true expert, and it would ultimately be a waste of my time.

The problem with TCM textbooks is that it hasn't been a long time since people have started gathering this knowledge from all over China and making it a systematic academic major. That's why studying with a proper laozhongyi is still the best way of learning TCM alongside going to school.

Who do you think runs the TCM schools, if not authorities on TCM? And if they run the schools, they should commission the writing of proper textbooks as well. I don't think this kind of knowledge can possibly be so profound, especially since it was discovered thousands of years ago by people with minimal knowledge of science.

So agree that as an academic major TCM needs more refinement but as someone practises qigong and meditation and is learning the practical aspects of the philosophy behind TCM I don't find it bogus at all. If you are a scientist I suggest that you keep your theories and claims to the areas that you actually have information about.

I never said TCM (or Qigong) was totally useless. I said it was not based on good science. That means it is likely to contain lots of hogwash along with the useful aspects. If you find something good in it, then use that by all means. Just don't expect people to accept TCM as a whole without lots of evidence.

[morpheus]

theories incomplete, results cannot be repeated, learning curve is steep and time consuming and not easily achievable, and not very efficient. now do you agree that it is not 'scientific'? how can something with a incomplete theory claimed itself to be effective? whats worse, you are saying that the younger TCM practitioners are crappy, only the old physicians are trustworthy. then? are you saying TCM in general is a scam in china?

That's the impression I've been getting too, lol.

[dumdumdum]

lets try to look at it from another aspect.

disclaimer: the paragraphs below are meant to look at TCM and related stuff from a 1/2 serious manner, there'll be stereotyping and generalisation but that's just about pushing things to the extreme, uncommon manner. please dont be offended.

ok here we go...

once i went to a western literature class in a chinese university. the teacher is a chinese, and he taught in putonghua too. so he was talking about greek tragedies and such. and then he mentioned 'Oedipus complex', the guy killed the father, married the mother, and went on to punish himself after learning about the truth. he said this legend influenced the western world all the way until today, that westerners are always trying to defy the 'father figure' or 'authority', 'traditions' and such, in general. of cos this is stereotyping but that was what i heard on that day.

so i was thinking 'what about the chinese'? and after some thoughts i realised the answer to be quite simple. it's the other way round, at least so in the past 2000 yrs. why? the answer is 'confucianism'. by the way, confucianism is, strictly speaking, not a philisophy. more like a social 'dos and donts' thingy. it doesnt try to explain the physical world like philosophers nor the Creator like theists. just about how to find your position in a social heirachy/network and upholding it. confucianism inherently placed the 'father figure' on the top part of the pyramid. and to expand on this, we would see this in a lot of chinese theories: that anything ancient is usually better than anything present, the older guy is a all-knowing figure. on the whole the chinese had blind faith in traditions. this actually applies beyond chinese or confucianism... well anything with a 'father figure' (including a certain 'western' religion) would do the same thing... that's why the 'westerners' acutally had a mixed influence.

well this is also stereotyping on my part but lets just pretend it is so...

if we realise this we would definitely understand why people who claimed to be TCM supporters, are bashing young doctors but trusted all the old folks. becos they got to respect the father figure and authority. once they cannot explain something they'll tell you 3000 yrs of ancient lore is beyond the comprehension of foreigners, and when we are wearing silk you are still wearing animal hides blah blah. but if we take a closer look at TCM, it actually originated from voodooism and mysticism, 巫医同源 in chinese, which explained the bogus part. then TCM talks about the 'ancient theory' of 12/14 经络 or 'meridians', where the QI would flow through. later we found out from the Han dynasty bronze or wooden human figurines, those actually had only 10 on them, various Han dynasty archives only had 11 meridians in record, which is a clear indication that the theory wasnt complete then. it was only later the last one or two 'meridians' was defined. TCM is supposed to be perfected by later physicians, the younger generation is more knowledgable.

but TCM supporters, becos of their blind faith in ancestors, would generally keep mum about this and tell people it has been 12/14 meridians all the while. if the theories had been incomplete, thats becos modern people believed in western science and destroyed the old archives. therefore according to them, what we should do now is to search for the lost fragments, the holy grail, and return TCM to its best form.

it is such mentality that prevented TCM from development and getting rightful recognition in modern age.

[rezaf]

Yes the young practitioners are a little bit crappy due to the problems in the current education system of TCM but they still can cure many minor diseases. Laozhongyi doesn't just refer to the age of doctor it mostly means the knowledge of the doctor. Young practitioners can learn TCM well if they put enough time and effort into learning it from them alongside going to school.

Also what you should have in mind is that TCM is in general about health and western medicine in general is about curing disease. Western medicine is more advanced in handling emergencies but TCM is better in a lot of chronic diseases. Of course this is not absolute and there are exceptions for both.

and who told you Qigong has to be difficult? it is not. the only thing it requires is continuous, daily practice. you dont have to spend hours everyday, 15 mins or 1/2 an hour will do. but do it consistently. you are again presenting your superstitions, that TCM or Qigong can only be master through the hard way. and this goes on to show that you knew little about it cos you knew only one way to do it. 1 + 4 would give you 5, 2 + 3 would give you the same thing. there is more than one way to get things done, and some things arent difficult at all if you just put away your prejudices.

It really depends on what you want to do with qigong. If it's just for general health purposes maybe 15 minutes everyday is enough but it's certainly not enough for learning the more serious exercises that show you the basic theory of TCM in practise. The nature of qigong exercises is slowing down everything that's why they usually take a long time. For example for opening your xueweis with breathing you need a long time to complete one sequence as there are many points in each sequence.

[dumdumdum]

yeah you are not referring to age. you are referring to ancient knowledge not 'corrupted by modern science'. it's the same tune with a different piano.

15 mins not enuough? can you please explain Qi so that we can have a basic idea? or maybe, a more straight forward question, have you ever felt Qi yourself?

[roddy]

Closing this, just seems to be a repeat of the other (pointless, circular) TCM discussion we had recently. Suggest you all take it to private messages and let us know when you've reached agreement.

PM me if you think it deserves reopened.