Pro-Cantonese Protest in Guangzhou

[jbradfor]

What I really don't like is in fact discrimination. It is good that when foreigners speak Mandarin but not good when mainlanders do

You bring up a good point. Fact is, in China, Caucasians are treated differently than locals are and differently from overseas Chinese. To us Caucasians, this has both good and bad aspects. [Personally, in my book, there are more bad than good, but that is because I don't like the extra attention, and I'm not trying to sleep with the local women. Others disagree.]

One of the good aspects is that we are given a lot more slack when it comes to the language than are (obviously) locals, and even overseas Chinese.

I'm not saying this is good or bad. But, honestly, at this point I don't get too bothered by it. Maybe I should, because you're right, it is discrimination. But I just call it "one of those Chinese things" and leave it at that....

you have a dialect?

No, but I have a very bad accent.

[xiaocai]

I don't mind if they treat you nicely. Because you are guest and I guess there is nothing wrong if they want to leave you a good impression. Probably I've got a typical Chinese way of thinking.

I don't expect anyone to welcome me as a VIP but neither would I be happy if I was looked down upon for no reason. That's what really made me angry.

Well you may feel more confident about your accent if you have a chance to hear my grandma speaking Mandarin.

[gato]

Xiaocai, when did you last visit HK? I think HKers' attitude towards mainlanders and Mandarin have been changing, so you might feel differently if you go today. I don't feel there is much, if any, discrimination towards Mandarin-speaking Chinese in HK today. Fluency in Mandarin is actually an important asset for getting a job in HK nowadays.

[jbradfor]

Well you may feel more confident about your accent if you have a chance to hear my grandma speaking Mandarin.

I appreciate the moral support, but it failed Your grandma (I presume) didn't spend 2 years taking University Chinese, then 3 months in Taiwan, the whole time being taught a proper 普通话 accent, only to end up with this result.....

[clc]

I will speak my dialect to them then if they speak Cantonese to me in my home town.

While HKers try to speak to you in Mandarin in their home town. What more evidence does it require to convince you?

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

Could not agree more with jbradfor...

What makes one 'ignorant', is when one is blinded with prejudice unable to see the whole truth.

One may understand 'discrimination' better, when one is not allowed to speak one's own language in one's home town. Then you are losing your root, and that seems to be what is happening with school children in Canton.

[renzhe]

One may understand 'discrimination' better, when one is not allowed to speak one's own dialect in one's home town. Then you are losing your root, and that seems to be what is happening with school children in Canton.

I'd like a source for this.

If the police is arresting schoolchildren for speaking Cantonese, then it's an outrage.

[xiaocai]

@clc: For the very fact that everywhere I went in China the locals would always speak Mandarin to me as soon as they know that I'm 外地人, I just simply can't see the superiority of Hong Kong on this matter...

And I think I will stop arguing whether "Hong Kong is much more accommodating than any other city in China" or not here, regardless if you "disagree" or agree with jbradfor, or who is able to see the whole truth, or if Canton kids can freely speak their own language at home or not. I'm very sorry but you have convinced me at all and I don't think I can, so I shall save space for more constructive opinions, which are more related to the topic...

@gato: probably you are right. It was actually many years ago and I should have just let it go and update myself with more current knowledge. Well I was young and got angry very easily (still do now).

@jbradfor: think about the fact that she's been living in China for 70+ years while listening to Mandarin everyday for at least 40 years don't you think being able to speak a language regardless the accent in 2 years and 3 months is just awesome?

[wushijiao]

Xiaocai, when did you last visit HK? I think HKers' attitude towards mainlanders and Mandarin have been changing, so you might feel differently if you go today. I don't feel there is much, if any, discrimination towards Mandarin-speaking Chinese in HK today.

I think Gato is right. The attitudes towards Mainlanders and Mandarin in HK have shifted a lot. I know a university prof from the Mainland that has been living in HK for over ten years. He said he used to get sneers or discriminatory looks when trying to speak Mandarin, now that's generally not the case (although I'm sure there are exceptions).

[sukitc]

I agree with Gato's comment that HK has changed a lot over the past 10 years (or more). I first went to Hong Kong in 1984 and felt that the locals were not very nice (especially towards me -- a Chinese-looking, overseas Chinese who don't speak Cantonese). However, peoples' attitude have changed tremendously since then. Now I still go to HK about 1-2 times per year on business and have not felt any negative vibes from the locals.

[clc]

I'd like a source for this.

Nowadays school children in Canton are not just not allowed to speak Cantonese in schools also not in their own home, some reported that some children are not even able to communicate with their grandparents at home. Plenty of source here if you care to read.

http://www.gznf.net/forum

http://www.hkreporter.com/talks/forum-1740-1.html

For the very fact that everywhere I went in China the locals would always speak Mandarin to me as soon as they know that I'm 外地人, I just simply can't see the superiority of Hong Kong on this matter...

Have you ever heard of 50年不变 policy in HK?

The British ruled HK over 100 years, even then Cantonese TV had never been removed. Cantonese is always spoken in Canton and always will be no matter what. If you are not happy about that, that is simply your own problem.

Also for the fact that as soon as outside of mainland China, no one can expect everyone to speak Mandarin to you, what make Mandarin speakers more superior than all else?

[Hofmann]

I'm surprised to see a group of people care so much about their dialect.

They should care. Language is strongly tied to culture and culture is strongly tied to people. To care about one's language is to care about one's culture and oneself.

[clc]

Language is strongly tied to culture and culture is strongly tied to people. To care about one's language is to care about one's culture and oneself.

Absolutely.

Nowadays Taiwan is doing way better than mainland China regarding this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10602697

Let the people and culture thrive, instead of destroying anything disagreeing with you...

[renzhe]

I admit that I don't have first-hand knowledge of the situation in Guangzhou, so I can't guess this. That's why I'm asking in the first place. I'd expect the situation for Cantonese to be much better than it is with Shanghainese and other Wu dialects, though, and there I know plenty of people who speak their dialect just fine, and I'm not aware of anyone who was forced to abandon their dialect at home. Wuxi-nese and Shanghainese were very much alive when I last visited. There are certainly many people who neglect their native dialect as Mandarin becomes more important, but I'm not aware of many who are forced to do so.

Nowadays school children in Canton are not just not allowed to speak Cantonese in schools also not in their own home

Sorry, I am not going to read an entire internet forum to find this, but how can this possibly be enforced? Could you at least point out a relevant thread, so I don't have to read threads like "狗改不了吃屎". If your replies are going to boil to posting links to general Cantonese-language discussion forums, then you won't come across as very helpful. How are they not allowed? Who is controlling it? What is the punishment? How does this work? If they really get punished for speaking their mother tongue, then it really is an outrage.

This thread is a good opportunity for people who do not live in Guangdong/Canton to better understand the situation that the Cantonese language and the Cantonese speakers (but also the migrant workers from other provinces) are facing. So far, I didn't learn anything other than that you're very angry.

Now, the way I understand, the Cantonese TV stations were asked to temporarily switch their prime time programs to Mandarin, to aid the tourists during the Asian games. Personally, I think that it's a rather odd request, and I'm aware that it might actually be a "request", and one that is not so temporary. I do think that there is a wealth of language and culture in China and I do think that these languages and dialects should be protected, at least by their speakers. I am very supportive of local stations broadcasting in the local language/dialect/regionalect. I don't think that the government should interfere with TV stations either, though this is sadly very much the case in the PRC. I very much agree with anonymoose's comment #5.

However, I still see a big difference between mandating the broadcasting language and prohibiting people from speaking their language in their hometown. One is annoying, the other one is absolutely outrageous. Also, comparing Taiwanese indigenous languages with Cantonese is reaching quite far. Cantonese is the third biggest Chinese language/dialect/regionalect, with a long history of poetry, music and films, and more than 70 million native speakers. You can't compare it to a tribal language spoken by a couple of thousand people. Personally, I believe that the increased migration is a far bigger factor affecting the spread of Mandarin and the decline of other dialects than any official policy. It's extremely hard to kill off a vibrant language through policy. Look at Irish or Basque.

If you're going to reply with another xenophobic sneer, you don't need to bother.

[gato]

The latest news is that it's just a misunderstanding and that there is no plan to end Cantonese broadcast on local stations in Guangzhou.

http://news.qq.com/a/20100730/001552.htm

子虚乌有的“推普废粤”从何而来？

2010年07月30日14:53羊城晚报

　　6月19日，对于持续“发酵”一个多月的所谓“粤普之争”，广州市委副书记苏志佳接受媒体专访时表示，个别人所说的“推普废粤”的情况并不存在。

　　7月28日，广州市政府再次重申，从未在任何时候、任何场合有过 “推普废粤”一说的表述和意思，更不存在这样的事实。“推普废粤”一说是一个彻头彻尾的伪命题。

[xiaocai]

Have you ever heard of 50年不变 policy in HK?

The British ruled HK over 100 years, even then Cantonese TV had never been removed. Cantonese is always spoken in Canton and always will be no matter what. If you are not happy about that, that is simply your own problem.

Also for the fact that as soon as outside of mainland China, no one can expect everyone to speak Mandarin to you, what make Mandarin speakers more superior than all else?

Yes I have heard of 50年不变 so does it make Hong Kong more accommodating?

And as for why you made the comment "The British ruled HK over 100 years, even then Cantonese TV had never been removed. Cantonese is always spoken in Canton and always will be no matter what. If you are not happy about that, that is simply your own problem." after quoting my post, I seriously have no idea. If you want to quote whatever someone else has said, please then make relevant points. Where in any of my posts did I say that I'm not happy with Cantonese being spoken in Canton? Please please, read other people's posts carefully because every time when I discuss something with people like you I just feel so frustrated that some people just like make things up out of nowhere... Likewise I didn't say anything that Mandarin speakers are superior or whatsoever at all.

I just honestly hope that you stop making things up, alright?

[gato]

If your replies are going to boil to posting links to general Cantonese-language discussion forums, then you won't come across as very helpful. How are they not allowed? Who is controlling it? What is the punishment? How does this work? If they really get punished for speaking their mother tongue, then it really is an outrage.

Maybe they are monitoring your dialectic correctness through your cell phone? Punishment is to watch all the episodes of "奋斗" in one setting.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029_3-6140191.html

Kaplan's opinion said that the eavesdropping technique "functioned whether the phone was powered on or off." Some handsets can't be fully powered down without removing the battery; for instance, some Nokia models will wake up when turned off if an alarm is set.

The U.S. Commerce Department's security office warns that "a cellular telephone can be turned into a microphone and transmitter for the purpose of listening to conversations in the vicinity of the phone." An article in the Financial Times last year said mobile providers can "remotely install a piece of software on to any handset, without the owner's knowledge, which will activate the microphone even when its owner is not making a call."

[MakMak]

I think we cantonese people should stop arguing over the what language should be spoken or not. I think personally, if we value are culture that much, we should start encouraging people to speak cantonese and start finding ways to learn and teach cantonese. What's the point of arguing if we're not going to do something right? My friend made a suggestion that blogging is a good start, or forums like these that we can start communities slowly. I'm sure it will take a while, but if we educate everyone and continue doing so wouldn't that be a good focal point? 愚公移山, sure we may not be doing much now, but if we keep pushing and pushing I'm sure we'll be able to see progress in our live and our future generations will rejoice in it right? And at the same time we can do this without fighting against the government. Say propose that for Cantonese Channel Ban... why don't they just put Standard Chinese subtitles like they always have? It's not like people who speak Mandarin typically can't read... those who can only listen but not read typically won't watch the news anyway (right? I don't know about that one). If this is all about just ratings, viewership, then I think it's wrong....

[atitarev]

It's not happened yet but some time in the future Chinese languages will have to compete with English in China. A single language spoken, written and understood by everybody in the country will have much better chances. It doesn't mean that languages and dialects need to be suppressed but China hasn't reached the point where Mandarin is known by everybody. So, there's nothing wrong in promoting it in all of China. It's difficult to promote a longer without doing it at another language expense, though.

[clc]

If you're going to reply with another xenophobic sneer, you don't need to bother.

Wow, where did you get the 'xenophobic sneer'?

Cantonese people are not the only people who feel their native language are being threatened, many Shanghaiers also complained about their native language are diminishing day by day. Some people may not care so much, but other people care more than you expect.

One thing for sure, it maybe too late if the situation ends up like the Taiwanese indigenous languages one day.

I just honestly hope that you stop making things up, alright?

No point to discredit other people's argument at such. Wise people can see truth in every argument regardless.

While foreign nationals are learning Chinese languages when they come to China, why can't 外地人 learn Cantonese language when you go to Canton? It is the rights of Cantonese to protect their native language, so are the Shanghaiers, Wuxiers, Tibetens and whoever.

We will just have to find our way around when we go places to there, surely a little extra respect would bring you more welcome and understanding than forcing people there speaking to you in the language you can handle better.

[xiaocai]

Wow, where did you get the 'xenophobic sneer'?

No point to discredit other people's argument at such. Wise people can see truth in every argument regardless.

I guess you must be one of the "wise people" then.

While foreign nationals are learning Chinese languages when they come to China, why can't 外地人 learn Cantonese language when you go to Canton? It is the rights of Cantonese to protect their native language, so are the Shanghaiers, Wuxiers, Tibetens and whoever.

My dear clc, I'm more than willing to practice my broken Cantonese whenever i have chance. I have been watching Cantonese dramas since I was young so simple conversations I can handle. But when things get more complicated I'd prefer to use languages that I'm more familiar with so there would be less chances of misunderstanding? I ask you and you think about this honestly when you go to Shanghai or Wuxi or Tibet for a tour how much time you would spend on learning Shanghainese or Tibetan or Wuxi dialect? And how many foreign tourists would actually learn just how to read Chinese before their trip to China? I would love to learn a new language if I have the time and brain but unfortunately in reality I don't and I suppose many other people don't as well. I with all the respect just asked in a way as humble as I could if I could use Mandarin but didn't expect such a negative response, which made me think that may be they are so not accommodating as some people said. I didn't force anyone and I even expressed that they can speak in Cantonese if they wanted but I would communicate much much better in Mandarin, but I still got negative responses, talking about being accommodating... And as I said in previous post it was many years ago (but after 1997 though) and apparently it is getting better now and I'm happy. All I wanted to say was everywhere is different, we are not following what Hong Kong is doing and I don't want to. I don't want all the cities in China to have bilingual signs and announcement in three languages even that make us seemingly "more accommodating". But we should learn to welcome every 外地人 or 外国人 regardless what languages they speak or how they look like or how much money they have, that's the true accommodation.