Pro-Cantonese Protest in Guangzhou

[renzhe]

Wow, where did you get the 'xenophobic sneer'?

I felt that many of your posts had a dismissive attitude, particularly those to non-Cantonese Chinese speakers. Perhaps they just came across that way. Like this one below vvv

While foreign nationals are learning Chinese languages when they come to China, why can't 外地人 learn Cantonese language when you go to Canton?

I'm sure that at least some of those who stay their for a longer time will do so. A migrant worker only staying for a couple of years will probably not, just like the majority of expats won't.

A similar question is why is it OK for a foreigner to speak Mandarin in Canton, but it's not OK for a Shanghainese to speak Mandarin in Canton? They both had to learn it as a language that is widely understood in China.

The situation of Cantonese is similar to the situation of Basque, Catalan, Irish, Bavarian or Low Saxon. There is a dominant language that is pushed through the schools and media, but they all still have a large number of native speakers. You're right, if the speakers simply give up on the language and don't bother, it will die out, as is slowly happening with Low Saxon. But the others are very much alive and kicking. It is up to the speakers, and not 外地人 to keep the language alive and relevant. Personally, I see Cantonese as relevant, and continuing to be so -- especially since the position of Hong Kong and Macao ensures that Cantonese-language media will continue to thrive. Cantonese has more speakers than any language in Europe other than the biggest 5 (English, Spanish, French, German and Russian).

And once again, I see a world of difference between trying to speak Mandarin in Canton (or Hong Kong, for that matter) as a 外地人 and making it illegal for the Cantonese to speak Cantonese among themselves. There is an undeniable push by the Beijing government to install Mandarin as the official and widely understood language (actually, this process has been going on for hundreds of years but the impact of the media and the school system is far greater now) and ensure that everyone speaks standard Mandarin without problems. This, of course, puts pressure on smaller languages, but I don't see it as a bad thing, as a lingua franca has many positive aspects too.

[clc]

I felt that many of your posts had a dismissive attitude

Sorry the world is not always on your side.

I'm sure that at least some of those who stay their for a longer time will do so. A migrant worker only staying for a couple of years will probably not, just like the majority of expats won't.

If I decide to live in France I will learn French no matter how long I am going to stay; If I decide to live in Shanghai I will learn Shanghai language no matter how long I am going to stay. This is more of an opportunity to get to know the local people and culture. If one is too lazy not to be bothered to learn then no point to blame the locals. Surely tourists are always welcome no matter what language you speak, but it is said that nowadays 50% of the people living in Canton do not speak Cantonese.

I see a world of difference between trying to speak Mandarin in Canton (or Hong Kong, for that matter) as a 外地人 and making it illegal for the Cantonese to speak Cantonese among themselves.

Glad you finally understand the difference and the Cantonese frustration.

[renzhe]

If I decide to live in France I will learn French no matter how long I am going to stay; If I decide to live in Shanghai I will learn Shanghai language no matter how long I am going to stay.

But you don't.

You sit at home, speak your native language, refuse to learn others, and pass your judgment on everybody else. Especially people who DO try to learn other languages.

Glad you finally understand the difference and the Cantonese frustration.

I'm still waiting for a source for this. Since when is it illegal to speak Cantonese in Canton?

Sorry the world is not always on your side.

I'm getting trolled hard here. Have a good day ;)

[gato]

If I decide to live in France I will learn French no matter how long I am going to stay; If I decide to live in Shanghai I will learn Shanghai language no matter how long I am going to stay. This is more of an opportunity to get to know the local people and culture.

France is a country, whereas Canton is not. You think about the reason for having a common national dialect again. A primary reason to help build a common national identity.

You seem to be moving from reasonable position of (i) freedom for people to speak their own dialect to the less reasonable position of (ii) requiring all newcomers into a place to learn the local dialect.

The latter might have been the natural thing in the old days when people didn't move around much, but not today, where in many big Chinese cities, the newcomers outnumber the locals. There is no natural incentive for newcomers to learn the local dialect when they can use Mandarin, the common national dialect, to communicate with everyone, locals and newcomers. This is a great convenience, really.

At the same time, the local can continue to use their own dialect. The problem today is that many people don't care all that much about their own dialect and would rather speak to their kids in Mandarin. There is, of course, a lot more mixed-dialect marriages than before, in which case Mandarin is the natural common language.

There is also the question of whether the government should do more to encourage local dialects. Considering that 50% of people living in Canton don't speak Cantonese, if the TV stations were entirely profit-driven, they probably wouldn't be broadcasting in Cantonese. They would need a government mandate or financial support to keep on broadcasting in Cantonese.

[MakMak]

It's not happened yet but some time in the future Chinese languages will have to compete with English in China. A single language spoken, written and understood by everybody in the country will have much better chances. It doesn't mean that languages and dialects need to be suppressed but China hasn't reached the point where Mandarin is known by everybody. So, there's nothing wrong in promoting it in all of China. It's difficult to promote a longer without doing it at another language expense, though.

Yeah, I understand that language unity is important. But don't you think languages themselves are important? I mean there's no governing body that regulates much less promotes Cantonese. Hong Kong and Macau are going to be assimilated into China around 2047 and 2049.

At the same time I do believe that us Cantonese people as how we are, it'll be a LONG while before we lose our language. At least I won't be alive to see it by then. Haha

[Altair]

I think that one of the difficulties of these sorts of language questions is that the considerations may differ substantially from what is seen at the level of individuals, communities, or nations. Asking directions in the national language can take a different meaning, depending on whether you examine the attitudes of the individuals involved, the community politics, or the national priorites. Also government policy and cultural attitudes, regardless of intent, can have quite unpredictable effects. Attempts at suppression can be quite successful (France since the revolution) or counterproductive (Spain under Marcos). Attempts at support can likewise be quite successful (Indonesian) or also counterproductive (Irish in Ireland). English has been unsuccessful in killing off Welsh after more than a thousand years of unequal contact, but has been spectacularly successful in the U.S. within only a few centuries. Arabic all but wiped out Coptic, but has been unsuccessful against Berber and some of the South Arabian languages right next to its birthplace.

France is a country, whereas Canton is not. You think about the reason for having a common national dialect again. A primary reason to help build a common national identity.

I think I know why you might say this, but I think it would be quite a polemical statement in many parts of the world, such as Quebec, Nova Scotia, Norway, south India, Sri Lanka, Valencia, South Africa, Switzerland, Brussels, and Puerto Rico. Even in the U.S., where English has no serious competitors among second generation immigrants (even Spanish speaking ones), it can be controversial to talk about an "official national language." In my own view, national cohesion is not always helped by policies aimed at spreading a universal community language. On the other hand, promoting monolingualism can also be quite detrimental to a language as the overall situation changes.

[wushijiao]

There is no natural incentive for newcomers to learn the local dialect when they can use Mandarin, the common national dialect, to communicate with everyone, locals and newcomers. This is a great convenience, really.

Yes, I agree that Mandarin is quite a convenient thing. I've been in places like Yunnan and Sichuan or Fujian, seeing people from Shanghai buy things and whatnot using Mandarin. If there weren't a common language, I doubt the Wu-speaking people would be able to know Sichuanese, Yunnanese, or Min Nan hua. Also, I think Mandarin can be kind of an equalizer for poor people from northern China who move to the coasts. At the very least, they probably face slightly less discrimination if they can speak Putonghua fairly well.

With all of that said, I think it would be great if the authorities would allow more local TV, radio, and movies in local languages. However, I think a more laissez-faire approach to culture isn't likely to happen in the near future.

[anonymoose]

I've been in places like Yunnan and Sichuan or Fujian, seeing people from Shanghai buy things and whatnot using Mandarin. If there weren't a common language, I doubt the Wu-speaking people would be able to know Sichuanese, Yunnanese, or Min Nan hua.

That's no different to people going from one country in Europe to another and using English as the lingua franca, but on the whole, no government in Europe has had to suppress the local language/dialect in order to achieve this.

[gato]

You know the Chinese government tends to go overboard with everything it does.

[renzhe]

That's no different to people going from one country in Europe to another and using English as the lingua franca, but on the whole, no government in Europe has had to suppress the local language/dialect in order to achieve this.

Most countries in Europe were built with the help of large amounts of language suppression. All European languages were built this way, including English (in Wales, Scotland, Ireland and the Isle of Man). I can't think of an example where this wasn't the case. Spanish was used to suppress Catalan, Galician and Basque, French suppressed Basque, Breton and all French dialects, Russian suppressed some 100 languages, Standard German has all but replaced Low Saxon in the north of Germany, and Bavarian is not used (or tolerated) in any official position, starting with schools and television. And I can't think of any single European government which didn't suppress the Roma and Sinti languages.

This is not an endorsement, BTW. With most of these languages, there is a resurgence and a directed attempt at protecting them, which is great. But it's a very recent trend.

Also, in many European countries, using English will get you as far as using English in China

[anonymoose]

Most countries in Europe were built using large amounts of language suppression.

Some concrete examples would be good.

I know that, for practical purposes, obviously large institutions would have had to adopt a common language, but I've not heard of any non-English speaking country trying to ban broadcasts in their local language in favour of English.

[xiaocai]

but I've not heard of any non-English speaking country trying to ban broadcasts in their local language in favour of English.

I think renzhe is not necessarily referring to English but rather to examples such as French in France, German in Germany, Spanish in Spain and Italian in Italy clearly mentioned in his post, no? There are many other prominent languages in Europe apart from English I guess?

[renzhe]

Yes, I was referring to the official state languages, like English in Britain or Castilian in Spain. I think that this is a fair comparison to Mandarin in China.

The fate of Irish and other Celtic languages is a direct consequence of such repressive measures in favour of English. There are about 350,000 fluent speakers of Irish today, despite an estimated worldwide population of about 80 million. Manx has about 100 native speakers left.

The situation has changed significantly in the recent years, with Irish, Welsh and other Celtic languages enjoying constitutional protection, the areas where there are many native speakers have dual-language signs, etc., but this is a recent phenomenon which came far too late IMHO, and it's unclear whether it can reverse the trend which was brought about by hundreds of years of pro-English measures. In general, the movement to conserve minority languages and dialects is a very recent one in Europe (and probably elsewhere too). Today, there are very few native speakers of Low Saxon left in Hamburg. But you can find books in Low Saxon in bookstores here, and you couldn't 15-20 years ago.

Obviously, most of us do not want to see such a scenario with Cantonese, Shanghainese and others. I'm not sure if the PRC measures can be equated to the British rule in Ireland, or Franco's anti-Catalan and anti-Basque escapades. I think that the closeness of the written vernacular to Mandarin, the use of Mandarin in schools and the large worker migrations are a far bigger factor in the spread of Mandarin and decline of other dialects than any media ban.

I don't think that the issue is whether the PRC wants to kill Cantonese -- I'm pretty sure it doesn't. The main question is whether the PRC wants to protect and conserve Cantonese or Shanghainese -- and I'm pretty sure it doesn't either.

[clc]

You sit at home, speak your native language, refuse to learn others, and pass your judgment on everybody else. Especially people who DO try to learn other languages.

Haha, are you talking about yourself? From this point, your posts will be ignored. Good day!

Why as a region the interests of the people can not be defended the same as a country? Should any country be protecting the interests of the people of all regions at the same time?

[renzhe]

At least you'll stop modding all of them down B)

[gato]

I'm not sure if the PRC measures can be equated to the British rule in Ireland, or Franco's anti-Catalan and anti-Basque escapades. I think that the closeness of the written vernacular to Mandarin, the use of Mandarin in schools and the large worker migrations are a far bigger factor in the spread of Mandarin and decline of other dialects than any media ban.

Migration of people to the big cities is the biggest factor here. Non-Mandarin dialects will fade out in the big cities like Shanghai and Guangzhou, where locals are already a minority among all residents. But dialects will live on in smaller cities and towns where there are fewer non-locals, or if there are newcomers, the newcomers are from nearby and speak something similar to the local dialect. People in small towns around Shanghai will continue to speak their local variant of the Wu dialect. Those in smaller towns near Guangzhou will continue to speak Cantonese. I don't think there's much danger that local dialects will be replaced by Mandarin in those places.

[skylee]

Non-Mandarin dialects will fade out in the big cities like Shanghai and Guangzhou, where locals are already a minority among all residents.

Where have all the locals gone?

[anonymoose]

The fate of Irish and other Celtic languages is a direct consequence of such repressive measures in favour of English. There are about 350,000 fluent speakers of Irish today, despite an estimated worldwide population of about 80 million. Manx has about 100 native speakers left.

Do you have any sources detailing specifically in what way the languages you mentioned were suppressed?

It is true that many languages that were once common in the British Isles are now extinct or on the verge of being so, but I suspect that is to large extent a result of "natural selection" than political coercion.

[gato]

Where have all the locals gone?

The locals are still there for the most part. It's just that there are a lot of newcomers and the cities have had their borders expanded so that they can swallow up the surrounding countryside. Less than half of Shanghai's long-term residents have Shanghai hukou, for example.

[renzhe]

Here is a credible source: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O29-CELTICLANGUAGES.html . It lists 9 main reasons for the decline of Celtic languages:

(1) Disunity among the Celts in the face of colonization, cultural domination and assimilation, and the pressure of governments often regarded as alien and regarding Celts as alien.

(2) Loss of linguistic status as English and French gained in strength and prestige.

(3) Shortage of reading material, in tandem with the imposition of educational systems mediated by English and French.

(4) Lack of adequate instruction and backup, even where a language has had official support, as in the Republic of Ireland and Wales.

(5) Loss of the language in religious life, as in Scotland, under the influence of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel (in English, with longterm Presbyterian resistance to translations of the Bible into Gaelic).

(6) Immigration into Celtic areas by speakers of English and French, often to hold important posts and with little or no interest in the local language.

(7) Emigration, often under pressure, as in the Irish famines and the Highland Clearances.

( The impact of the media, especially in the 20c, with most or all newspapers, radio, cinema, and television in English or French.

(9) A sense of increasing irrelevance, coupled with a general disdain for or indifference to Celtic speech, and assumptions of social and linguistic inferiority in the dominant culture that many Celts have slowly come to accept.

Of course, the issue is rather emotional and politicised, especially in the context of Ireland. Public beatings in schools for speaking Gaelic are commonly cited, and there was little publishing in Irish, as even many Irish intellectuals preferred English.

There are many parallels to Mandarin, actually, but the difference is that the British invaded and imposed their language, which doesn't really apply to Canton. If the current PRC policy is seen as suppression, then I can't see how the historic rise of English in Britain and Ireland can be anything else. Of course, further repressive measures include those which resulted in a huge mortality rate in Ireland, particularly relating to the Great Famine. This is a bit harsher than anything taking place in Guangzhou today.

When it comes to languages like Basque, then you can't really talk about anything other than suppression. It was quite literally banned.