Pro-Cantonese Protest in Guangzhou

[anonymoose]

Thanks for the link, renzhe. It really demonstrates my point. Only the first point hints at political pressure. All the others are social. Of course social pressures are also influencing the decline of dialects in China, but I don't think there has been anything like the kind of political pressures on minority languages in the UK as there is in China.

[renzhe]

Mandating that education and religious ceremonies only be done in English, is a political, not social factor. Can you list some of the political pressures which the Chinese government is exerting now which are explicitly aimed at harming minority languages and dialects, and which were not present in Ireland or Scotland under British rule?

I should note that I was referring mostly to pre-20th century rule, not the situation today when talking about the Celtic languages. Since the independence of Ireland, the political pressures have mostly been in the other direction, to strengthen the Irish language, but not with great results. Same in Wales, where the language is protected and encouraged, but the number of speakers is still very modest. In that sense you're right, today it's only social pressures shaping the language landscape there.

Since you live in Shanghai, you will likely have a better view of it than I do. It seems to me that the social factors (migration, media and the career opportunities) are the driving forces in China today. Without migration and media, everyone in Shanghai would likely still be speaking Shanghainese.

This doesn't mean that Mandarin isn't pushed at the expense of others, it is. I'm just wondering how different it is from what has already happened in most of Europe. The Basque are not speaking Spanish today because of Spanish music. I have a number of Lithuanian friends, all of them are fluent in Russian. Not all of them are happy about the fact that they are fluent in Russian.

[atitarev]

I agree to a point - yes, social pressures are very important but there is a language policy - maintaining standards, education, availability of resources. There is some government pressure too - I hear some programs in dialects are not encouraged (if not banned).

Your Lithuanian friends may be glad soon, as Russian has lost its influence and there are much less fluent Russian speakers in the Baltic states than it used to be. There is some comeback, especially in Latvia due to new immigration rules.

[rob07]

Do you have any sources detailing specifically in what way the languages you mentioned were suppressed?

It is true that many languages that were once common in the British Isles are now extinct or on the verge of being so, but I suspect that is to large extent a result of "natural selection" than political coercion.

For example, it was illegal for any Catholic to teach in Ireland between 1723 and 1782. An intended purpose of this was that schools could not be conducted in Irish, as almost all Irish speakers were Catholic.

As late as 1825, the Protestant hierarchy petitioned the King, saying "amongst the ways to convert and civilise the Deluded People, the most necessary have always been thought to be that a sufficient number of English Protestant Schools be erected, wherein the Children of the Irish Natives should be instructed in the English Tongue and in the Fundamental Principles of the True Religion."

You ought to be able to find plenty of sources by googling "hedge schools" (which is where I got the above quote from). Hedge schools were illegal Irish schools.

[wushijiao]

Interesting to look at Renzhe's link about the death of Celtic languages. Just about every point could apply to China, in my view:

1) Disunity among the Celts in the face of colonization, cultural domination and assimilation, and the pressure of governments often regarded as alien and regarding Celts as alien.

Not "alien", but there's certainly disunity. Ala, a person who used to post a lot here a few years ago, argued that Shanghai could serve to the Wu branch what HK has served to Cantonese- ie, a media hub and de facto standardizer, which could give unity against Putonghua. Obviously none of the big cities in China's dialect regions enjoy such a possibility to government policies.

(2) Loss of linguistic status as English and French gained in strength and prestige.

Putonghua and English are gaining in prestige...

(3) Shortage of reading material, in tandem with the imposition of educational systems mediated by English and French.

Gov. does not allow publishing in dialects, with some exceptions.

(4) Lack of adequate instruction and backup, even where a language has had official support, as in the Republic of Ireland and Wales.

No instruction is allowed in non-Putonghua.

(5) Loss of the language in religious life, as in Scotland, under the influence of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel (in English, with longterm Presbyterian resistance to translations of the Bible into Gaelic).

Double Whammy. Gov. strictly controls religion and the language services are held in (to the best of my knowledge). Interestingly, religious proselytizing was one of the main publishing forms of Chinese dialects in the written form in the past.

(6) Immigration into Celtic areas by speakers of English and French, often to hold important posts and with little or no interest in the local language.

Obviously most coastal areas face huge internal immigration (ie. think of Guangzhou, Shanghai...etc).

(7) Emigration, often under pressure, as in the Irish famines and the Highland Clearances.

There used to be a lot of emigration out of Guangdong and Fujian, but overall this point isn't relevant.

( The impact of the media, especially in the 20c, with most or all newspapers, radio, cinema, and television in English or French.

Again, gov policies restrict media to using Putonghua, with minor exceptions.

(9) A sense of increasing irrelevance, coupled with a general disdain for or indifference to Celtic speech, and assumptions of social and linguistic inferiority in the dominant culture that many Celts have slowly come to accept.

Irrelevance and indifference play a huge role. But "indifference" needs a caveat, since often people aren't too cognizant of these issues. People's awareness will tend to stay low, i'd predict, as long as the government continues to shape the discourse on the debate.

[rob07]

I meet quite a lot of people in Australia that speak Cantonese or Hokkien but not Mandarin because their parents emigrated from Guangdong or Fujian. So I wonder if there are enough people like this outside of China to form a critical mass to help keep those dialects alive. For example, I've always found it interesting that the very successful Malaysian singer 梁静茹 is known as "Fish" because 茹 and 魚 are homonyms in Cantonese even though they are not homonyms in Mandarin and she is Taiwan based I think.

I don't know much about other Asian countries, but I have the impression that other Asian governments with significant ethnic Chinese population are following China's lead in giving substantial official support to Mandarin.

[MakMak]

For example, I've always found it interesting that the very successful Malaysian singer 梁静茹 is known as "Fish" because 茹 and 魚 are homonyms in Cantonese even though they are not homonyms in Mandarin and she is Taiwan based I think.

Very Interesting, I never thought about that before haha.