Grammar Index for Mandarin Chinese?

[Laughing Squid]

For a number of years, I have studied Japanese. I can now speak, read and write it fluently; now I am moving onto Mandarin Chinese (I'm trying to use traditional characters instead of simplified characters).

When studying Japanese, there was a particular web site that I found VERY useful, JGram.org. What made JGram so useful was the fact that it had lists of Japanese grammar points, and each link led to an explanation of the grammar point. There were numerous examples, which allowed you to "get into the groove" of the grammar point. Using a combination of JGram.org, vocab lists and the SRS program "Supermemo," once I got into the habit of using JGram, it was relatively easy to learn Japanese grammar.

My question is "is there a similar book/web site/etc. that features a list of grammar explanations for Mandarin Chinese?" I've looked all around (Internet, book stores, etc.), and I cannot seem to find anything.

Rather than having a book or site that tries to teach characters, vocabulary and grammar all at once, I want something dealing specifically dealing with grammar. Do you know of anything?

[aristotle1990]

I think ChinesePod's grammar guide may be exactly what you're looking for. It's got a tremendous amount of stuff (partially in traditional too) -- see, for example, this page.

Also, Oxford has an extremely impressive list of grammar notes here.

By the way, since everyone here studies Chinese, I might as well ask -- did you like learning Japanese? Did you get a lot out of it? Was it as good as you thought it would be? If you had to start all over again, would you pick another language to study?

[SiMaKe]

Yale also has a partial list they call "Essential". It is similar to, but not as extensive as, the Oxford site. It packages some of the material differently which is useful to drive home nuances.

http://comet.cls.yal...ent/grammar.htm

[Zomac]

I took a quick look on the resources provided by aristotle and simake and I, as a native speaker, also find it interesting to read it, however the structure is pretty confusing. I'm wondering how and when you use them? how do you search a particular grammar issues in those sites?

[BertR]

Yale also has this more elaborated website: http://comet.cls.yale.edu/chineseusagedictionary/

[SiMaKe]

@Laughing Squid

Actually, from what a quick glimpse at JGram shows about what it offers, the site that BertR links to (Yale usage dictionary) appears to be more similar to the JGram.org site than either of the sites that Aristotle or I point to. By this I mean that JGram and "sage dic" both show how different "pieces" of lexis are used. A dictionary of sorts but with more discussion on nuances of meaning, appropriateness for different contexts, numerous examples, etc.

The Oxford site that Aristotle points to and the Yale site that I offered are more along the lines of what I think of as "grammar references". These discuss topics such as complement of degree or resultative complement or potential complement rather than how 要 and 想 differ in their meaning of "want" (although some of this is in there as well).

If I understand what you are looking for, you could try looking at nciku.com, especially in the Comprehensive Chinese-English Dictionary component. This section offers explanations of the various usages along with relevant examples. The Examples section frequently provides a good number of examples of the various usages. Other folks prefer other sites.

On the off-chance that you want a grammar reference (as I use the term), search the forums to find discussions of the pros and cons of many of the available sources. I believe most, if not all, are in book form though. For example, if you want in-depth/exhaustive discussions of grammar, my two favorites are Li & Thompson (A Functional Reference Grammar) and Yip and Rimmington (op cit). But these are not appropriate for beginners (TMI! ).

@Zomac

I agree that the referenced sites are not conducive for searching. To answer your question, I usually look at these sites for a quick overview, or check, of the main features of a given grammar point. For example, what are all the forms of a particular grammar point (positive, negative, interrogative, etc). Under what situations is the point generally used? Does the point allow pre- and post-verbal placement of objects? The structure of the site, I believe, seems handy if you are employing an SRS to memorize/review points.

[Zomac]

Hi Simake, I'm wondering if the index is largely based on chinese characters, will average users know how to search by characters which seem to be notoriously difficult to type.

If the entry starts with the name such as "Danshi 但是" , is it helpful for users?

[SiMaKe]

Zomac.

Since my mention of "referenced sites" was a bit vague, I'm not sure which one(s) you are referring to. So let me try this.

The Yale "Essential" and the Oxford sites are not readily searchable, as far as I can tell, by any means other than maybe Google. They present themselves as a list of key grammar issues, then proceed to discuss each issue in more depth as to usage coupled with examples. More along the lines of what you would see in the Grammar section of a text like NPCR.

As for Chinesepod, I have not followed the development of this and, hence, have not used it. It appears that it might be searchable if you are a member but it presents itself initially as a list of topics.

Yale "Usage" has both a browse function and an index. One can browse by pinyin or hanzi. The index is by the first letter of the pinyin.

nciku is searchable by pinyin, hanzi and English. Depending on where you start (pinyin, hanzi, English), it may take a little poking around to find what you are looking for. But, for me, I almost always find it, and more.

In terms of coverage, Yale "Usage" is somewhat limited (my opinion). I suspect it was developed as a resource for a certain group of students at a particular level, or levels, and not intended as a comprehensive reference for research. If what you are looking for is there, then it includes a detailed discussion of the point in question along with examples. On the other hand, nciku has much greater coverage but the explanations are nowhere near as complete/extensive as those in "Usage". For instance, in terms of your specific example, danshi is not one of the items discussed in the "Usage" dictionary. (A more typical example would be a discussion of the differences between 又 and 再 with examples of correct and incorrect usage.) In nciku, searching for 但是 brings up a page with several sections: 1) a simple dictionary entry with short definitions and an example or two, 2) a comprehensive dictionary entry showing a, sometimes. extensive list of different uses/definitions including examples, 3) a list of about 860 example sentences, 4) collocations (虽然。。。但是。。。、 尽管。。。但是。。。), 5) idioms (sometimes), and 6) word decomposition (which are then searchable on their own).

"If the entry starts with the name such as "Danshi 但是" , is it helpful for users?"

I guess that depends on what the person is looking for and how much they already know. If they want to know all the ways to say "but

then put "but" in nciku and start reading to find what you want.

The example you give does seem to be the (at least one) type of entry in JGram. So maybe I don't really understand your question.:unsure:

[Zomac]

@simake, sorry that i don't ask my question clearly. I was actually quite surprised to see that there's still no a real comprehensive and searchable chinese grammar reference site. it seems to me that you're familiar with many online reference sites. So, if you had a problem with certain grammar issues, where would you look for the answer...?

For example, if you want to say "please proof-read this article", but not really sure if you should use 改正 or 改 , where would you look for the answer?

Another random example is 抽　vs 吸. Someone asked "hey, how to say smoke a cigarette in Chinese? Do 抽煙 and 吸煙 mean the same thing? " Suppose that there'd be no native speaker or a forum around, where would you look for the answer?

[SiMaKe]

@Zomac

Don't worry, I'm sure I don't answer your questions clearly. The interactive nature of this forum is one of its strengths.

First the disclaimers.

1. "familiar with many online reference sites". Maybe. I certainly have looked at my share over time. But, as I suspect most folks do, I tend to return to those I have found most helpful.

2. Clearly, I can only tell you what I do/would do. But that is not always the best way (even for me sometimes ;)). Other folks may have much better approaches and are way more informed than I.

Now to the question.

Given that I view the problems you provided more as dictionary/definition rather than structural, I would first check my go-to site, nciku, and carefully read the dictionary definitions and example sentences (especially the Comprehensive entries). Also check further down the page for any Notes or Collocations. All with the end in mind of trying to understand any subtleties in meaning or tendency of usage.

Also could check Dict.cn and/or http://dict.en.iciba.com for any further guidance they might provide.

Search the terms in Google to get a sense of frequency of usage. This answer is not to be taken as definitive but only suggestive.

Also browse the Google results for any suggestive information. (E.g., while searching for the "smoking" words I noticed that one site presented then in such a way that they appeared equivalent).

Check the Yale Usage site to see if the items in question are there.

Try to apply whatever knowledge you have of the formation of Chinese words. For example, say, combining two verbs that mean the same thing is sometimes done to lessen/remove ambiguity or provide a clarifying/qualfying element.

And after all this, you may still be wrong (even if you are a native speaker - see the discussion going on in another thread about "sturdy" ).

Using the above process on your 改正 question, I might conclude that 改 is a more general term for change/correction while 正 makes the aspect of "making it right" an important component of the change. However, some of the examples are very close in intent so that the terms might be interchangeable in certain contexts (e.g., correcting an essay). Google frequencies are comparable so it appears neither is rare or more frequent than the other.

I would be ecstatic to find a comprehensive, online, search-able source (besides some of the quite knowledgeable people on this forum) but I haven't found one yet.

What would interesting, and helpful, to me would be to have someone who really knows the difference between 改 and 改正 to come by and tell us the "real" answer.

Or to have someone else chime in about how they would answer your questions.

[Jane_PA]

"Another random example is 抽　vs 吸. Someone asked "hey, how to say smoke a cigarette in Chinese? Do 抽煙 and 吸煙 mean the same thing? " Suppose that there'd be no native speaker or a forum around, where would you look for the answer? "

A lazy way...from my English learning experience....You can just input any Chinese words into google and search for it, if you are not sure can you combine them together. If it could give suggestions or results, which might solve your doubt. Sure, this is not a accurate way for learning a language, but just fast and easy... I use this way to confirm a lot of English words or phrases.