Chinese self study in the US

[Ahoy_thar]

I've been taking Mandarin for over a year now in the US. I've gone from Beginner, Intermediate and now I'm finishing up advanced Mandarin this summer. I'm afraid to stop learning because I know I'll forget it very quickly. My school doesn't offer any more language classes in Chinese, and I'll be stuck in the US for another year working on degree requirements that I need to finish at my school before I go abroad.

My question:

Has anyone successfully studied Chinese independently, at a higher level for a year in the US? If so what did you study? What kind of regimen did you set yourself? Finally, what kinds of tools did you use that you found helpful?

I could really use the advice. I really want to continue pushing my Chinese language abilities forward as much as I can.

Any advice would be appreciated!

[bijian]

Ahoy_thar, one method that has helped one of my multi-lingual friends (24 year old male fluent in 10 languages) is to read two articles a week in each language. I imagine that is 20 articles for him. Just try your best. Of course, nothing beats a trip to a Chinese speaking area, but I understand you are restricted by the degree requirements. However, study abroad has become quite common these days. Double-check to see whether you can take off a semester to go study Chinese there. As for cost, the whole package is much cheaper than a semester at an average university in U.S.A.

Best wishes.

[Ahoy_thar]

I've checked with my school, and there are some classes that I have to take at their institution, otherwise I'd be out of here in a heart beat!

Thanks for the advice. It's not too intensive, but it would be enough to at least keep my use of the language up. I'll also have a language partner that I meet with once a week which will help with the speaking part.

[natra]

There are lots of tools online you can use to study Mandarin. You may already know some or most of these, but here is what I came up with:

~ Chinese tutoring onEdufire is around $10/hour. Find a new textbook or reading materials, then schedule a tutor online to go over the lessons with you how you see fit. Try to push yourself with difficult materials. If you've been studying for over a year, you can start trying to read Chinese newspaper articles if you have not already started. Meeting a tutor is also be one way to continue practicing your listening.

~ You can use flashcard software to help keep the vocabulary and new grammar points you're studying organized. Anki is popular, although I prefer to use Iflash. There are many others you can find with a quick Google search.

~ When you are studying new words, try to read the English translation plus the Chinese definition from a good Chinese dictionary. It will help you gain a better understanding of the vocabulary. Also, try to study new vocab in the context of collocations it often occurs within.

~ Keep a journal in Chinese and have a native speaker correct it for you. Review their corrections. Try to memorize new expressions and sentence patterns that they write down for you. One website you can do this for free is Lang8, although sometimes the corrections users on that website give may not be completely correct. For the most part however it seems to be a useful tool.

[renzhe]

Please do read around the forum. Many people here are self-taught and have written in great detail about their study routines. It's always better to be immersed in the language, but you can make really good progress on your own too.

The key question is how good your Mandarin really is. When you say "Advanced", does this mean passing the advanced HSK, or is it the name of the course? Many courses exaggerate when describing the level. How many characters can you comfortably read, and how large (roughly) is your vocabulary? Can you read a simple book? Can you watch a Chinese movie (with Chinese subtitles)? This is what I'd consider advanced.

If you are at this level, then you should watch TV series and movies, and read books and stories. Then structure your learning around this. Get a good grammar book, look up any difficult spots, get a good dictionary and look up difficult words. Once you're at the advanced level, you should strive to use native materials and learn the way natives learn. It's considerably more enjoyable and it will make it interesting enough to give you the volume you need.

I doubt that one year of language school in the US will get you to this level, which means that you'll really have to study on your own. If you can't comfortably read or understand TV shows, then you should continue studying using a good textbook and focus on learning the necessary grammar and acquiring vocabulary, by using one of many good flashcard programs and vocabulary lists. At the same time, try to read and watch native materials anyway, starting with the easy ones and fighting your way throught it.

The idea of getting a language partner is a good one, but you should be aware that this will bring you practice and little else. Don't expect to learn automatically just by chatting with a language partner. Prepare your stuff ahead of time, learn your grammar and vocab, watch lots of TV to develop listening skills, and then hone them through conversation practice.

[Yezze]

I listen to a lot of Chinese music and that seems to help me. I just listen to it a few times, then summarize it in my head and get a copy of the lyrics then read it in Chinese, then look up what i don't know (like 20% of the song on average i would say). Last year (junior year), i finished all the Chinese classes they offer at through my high school (online classes, where we meet once a week...) But, my family is getting an exchange student for 10 months from China this year, who i will be sharing my room with, and knows that i am only going to speak in Chinese to him, so i don't think my Chinese learning will stop.

Back to the music, i am not sure if this is the best way to study, but for me, its fun and i learn a lot.

[leosmith]

The idea of getting a language partner is a good one, but you should be aware that this will bring you practice and little else. Don't expect to learn automatically just by chatting with a language partner. Prepare your stuff ahead of time, learn your grammar and vocab, watch lots of TV to develop listening skills, and then hone them through conversation practice.

Conversation is crucial, and should be an integral part of a language learning program. While I agree that it's not a substitute for learning grammar, reading, listening, etc, I also believe you have incorrectly underemphasized it. Speaking is one of the 4 basic skills, and polls have shown conversation is the number one skill language learners want to acquire. Regarding practice "a pound of practice for an ounce of study" is a good quote to keep in mind.

[renzhe]

Right, but:

1) you will not get enough speaking practice in the US. End of story. You should not let this distract you from developing other skills, such as reading and listening, which you can practice just fine.

2) you should be careful with speaking a lot very early if you're not doing it with somebody who is capable of correcting you, pointing out the mistakes and guiding your studies. All practice and little study will help you develop terrible habits, especially when it comes to tones.

Practice is important, but during the early stages, it is important that practice helps you improve, as opposed to help you develop terrible habits without improving.

[Jane_PA]

Yes, keep reading is a good way to keep a language. What do you like to read in English? you may also try to read similar stuff in Chinese...

[leosmith]

you will not get enough speaking practice in the US.

If you have internet, this is false. Conversation is an important part of any language learning program, and should not be avoided.

you should be careful with speaking a lot very early

Agreed, within the first 100 hours or so. I prefer only to parrot language programs at this stage. But taking the ALG approach has been shown to be very inefficient.

if you're not doing it with somebody who is capable of correcting you, pointing out the mistakes and guiding your studies

Over-correcting is not a good idea. Provided the learner has a well-rounded program, studies have shown correcting conversation isn't necessary. The learner corrects herself.

[renzhe]

If you have internet, this is false.

No, it's not. A few hours a week on Skype are no substitute for living in Beijing, and you know it.

Conversation is an important part of any language learning program, and should not be avoided.

And nobody said that you should avoid conversation. Just that if you're self-studying in the US, conversation will likely not be your main study tool, especially if you can't even follow a soap opera or a comic book.

Over-correcting is not a good idea.

And this is why you ideally want an experienced person who knows when and what to correct.

[leosmith]

No, it's not. A few hours a week on Skype are no substitute for living in Beijing, and you know it.

If you're studying 20hrs/week, 5 hrs/week with a skype tutor is fine. Not nearly as good as living in Beijing, but certainly "enough".

Just that if you're self-studying in the US, conversation will likely not be your main study tool, especially if you can't even follow a soap opera or a comic book.

Sorry, I don't understand this sentence. How is not being able to follow a soap opera going to make conversation less likely to be my main study tool? Do you mean it will be less effective?

[renzhe]

I'm not sure I follow. You said that I was avoiding/underemphasising conversation and not stressing it enough, and then you say that 5 hours a week is enough. 5 hours a week is really not much at all.

Sorry, I don't understand this sentence. How is not being able to follow a soap opera going to make conversation less likely to be my main study tool?

If you can't follow a simple conversation on TV, then how are you going to follow a simple conversation in person?

Your conversation topics are going to be limited and go around in circles. This has been my experience. Reading and listening are far more effective vocabulary builders.

[songlei]

i agree with renzhe here. speaking is of course an essential element in learning chinese, but it makes little sense to me to emphasize it as much as most people do during say the first three years of study. of course, pronunciation practice is essential in the beginning, but practicing out loud what you have learned is primarily good for reinforcing the stuff you've learned before, and not for making any real progress in new territory. you will not nearly learn as much new stuff from practicing with a language partner as you will from studying from textbooks and real material on your own. maybe it works well for easier languages, but with chinese you're up against such a vast body of alien vocabulary, expressions and grammar patterns that you might as well let go of the idea you will be speaking the language properly any time soon and start working your way through schoolbooks (and later the things you would enjoy in your own language as well) for at least 80% of the time. by the way, i find that listening to stuff you can understand well repeatedly is a very effective way to become more fluent in speaking. my advice to the topic starter: create your own srs database (so that you have a personal experience with all items in it), work almost exclusively with vocabulary in a context (collocations, short sentences) and most importantly, listen to sentences/tapes that contain the vocabulary/grammar you are studying a lot

[leosmith]

I'm not sure I follow. You said that I was avoiding/underemphasising conversation and not stressing it enough, and then you say that 5 hours a week is enough. 5 hours a week is really not much at all.

If a person is studying a total of 20 hours per week, would you allot more than 5 of those hours to conversation, and if so, how many?

If you can't follow a simple conversation on TV, then how are you going to follow a simple conversation in person? Your conversation topics are going to be limited and go around in circles. This has been my experience.

In my experience, understanding a conversation partner is much easier. This is because you can stop them, ask questions, make gestures, etc. Two people working together to understand eachother is generally more comprehensible than watching a conversation on TV.

Reading and listening are far more effective vocabulary builders.

I agree. I don't advocate making conversation the primary tool for one's studies, I just don't think it should be under emphasized.

[amandagmu]

I think that if one has no better option, there is nothing wrong with adding a few hours of conversation over Skype each week to a normal class schedule. In fact, I have to say, that in my experience of studying outside of China, I have found Skype video teachers/tutors to be more helpful than a language partner or someone in person at times. Yeah, sure, it's more fun to have someone to speak to personally and I relate better to gestures myself, but if you research the Skype option you'll have more choice over someone who is certified (this can take a while, and you should try out "free" lesson options with various people or schools --- personal experience speaking here).

Additionally, as someone who is approximately low-advanced level and has lived 1 year in Taiwan and several months in China (all spent in full-time intensive study), I've found that only a few methods have helped keep me afloat and/or reviewing (and I'll be going back again soon after a long hiatus) - constant listening to ChinesePod episodes for the hell of it (commuting, while jogging, etc), watching Chinese movies (and with subtitles when I can), reading tidbits on news sites in Chinese, and conversational practice. As a low-advanced speaker, one of the things I've most liked about the Skype lessons is that the teachers in China are much more willing to speak to me *only* in Chinese for the full hour I pay them to do so. I'm sick of language partners and people in my country (even tutors, teachers, classes I have tried out or paid for) breaking into English to explain concepts. I know enough Chinese they can talk around the topic and I get the gist. Only a truly skilled teacher or tutor can properly do this, which can be extremely difficult to find in some places!

[amandagmu]

Also, I agree with songlei:

"let go of the idea you will be speaking the language properly any time soon"

I firmly believe that this can only happen with a fully immersive experience. (The only program I know of in the U.S. like this would be Middlebury, and possibly Cornell, which I know less about.)

When I first stepped off the plane in Beijing after two full semesters of Chinese in the U.S. I didn't understand anything in Chinese for the first 2-3 weeks I was there. Worse yet, when I got to Taiwan over two years later and after nearly two years off from the language (and only a low intermediate level at that point following 2 years of study) my tones were so off no one could understand me. HOWEVER -- this is a big however -- my pronunciation (sans tones) was damned near perfect. I had learned how to pronounce things in Chinese 101 by listening to the dialogues and tone practices on the Cheng and Tsui audiotapes (the ones that accompanied Chinese Level 1, Book 1) over and over again for my first semester. This really helped speed up the process in China. After just a few weeks in an immersive environment and with daily, constant correction on my tones, I was able to be understood in Beijing, and two years later make even speedier progress in Taiwan. (Needless to say, less studious people who didn't pour as much time into those initial pronunciation efforts had a much more difficult time trying to "pick up" the tones as they went along. They had the arduous task of trying to correct both pronunciation AND tones as they bumbled along in the program.)

So my advice to you would be to grab a set of audiotapes and start repeating over and over again. Finding some help on Skype isn't a bad idea if you don't have a regular class you're attending, or if your teacher speaks too often in English (even as a beginner I firmly believe that most the class should be in Chinese, this based on my past experiences).

[Matty]

When I went back to Australia for 6 months, I found somethings that helped me maintain my Chinese were as follows:

• Listen to Chinese music

• Watch a Chinese movie now and again - or more often ^^

• Find some Chinese friends - most universities have a number of Chinese exchange students who love to make friends

• Get a Chinese boss - maybe not so easy, but I just happened to have one, best boss ever

When I got back to China some of my friends asked how my Chinese improved when I was outside China, they expected it would get worse. - Personally I just think it stayed about as bad as it was before I went back.

The final point which may be the hardest of all but the one which pays off most... We all have that voice in our head that does the thinking for us what to do (or am I a crazy? I have one). Have it speak in Chinese, I often think in Chinese now, my little inner voice throwing around Chinese all the time and only jumping to English when I’m writing English or missing vocabulary.

[xianhua]

We all have that voice in our head that does the thinking for us what to do (or am I a crazy? I have one).

You and the rest of the human race - bar a few Enlightened monks.

[TCcookie]

I began self-study as a senior in high school in 2003 and was functional in Chinese long before I started in on university courses at the 300-level a few years later. In that time, I found what worked for me, and I think that while everyone learns differently, there are a few things I've come to feel strongly about that I put in **'s for your reference.

A Self-Study Framework for Use in the US

*Systematic learning material* - A lesson book or something you can work through to guide your study on some level

*Dictionary*

*Book or other systematic resource for reading/writing*

*The internet*

I used the following resources, specifically:

Routledge Grammar Series, including Basic Chinese: A Grammar and Workbook; Intermediate Chinese: A Grammar and Workbook; and Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar. Written by Yip-po Ching and Don Rimmington. These books do not throw situational units at you and teach grammar in a "by-the-way" fashion. Rather, they teach you the building blocks of the language itself and it's up to you to incorporate them into the situations you want to function in. For example, unit one in Basic Chinese is "Nouns". It covers singular and plural usage, definite and indefinite reference, and a couple other very specific points. Each point is followed by multiple examples. I strongly believe that if you work through Basic Chinese, you will "know Chinese." That's what I did. Intermediate Chinese just builds on the principles in Basic, and the Comprehensive Grammar is a reference book. These are indispensable... if you're serious about learning Chinese and not just playing with it.

Dictionary - I like the Oxford Pocket dictionary. For beginners, they have a nice starter dictionary, too, that groups some vocabulary sets for easier learning and includes helps like common measure words in the noun entries. nciku.com is a great online dictionary.

Reading and Writing Chinese - by Don Rimmington. This book comes in several flavors. Even though I purposely learned from the beginning to write in reformed characters but read both sets, I still used the traditional character version of this book. I only systematically reviewed the first 300 or so characters and felt it gave me a good enough base to learn the rest through use. Use is the only way to really become literate, but a book like this can help build a necessary foundation.

- Methodology Framework -

After reading some threads on here with many contributions by beginners, I have been shocked at how poorly most colleges apparently teach pronunciation and listening and even more grateful that I chose not to go that route. Personally, I think for the intrinsically motivated Chinese student self study is more valuable than "language courses" because you can teach to your own needs.

Aside from working through the grammar books, I expose myself to tons of Chinese, usually through the internet. Even if I don't understand it, hearing it conditions my brain to the syntactic and auditory rhythms of Chinese and makes it easier to incorporate what I'm learning systematically. Basically I learn vocabulary from being exposed to it or from lists I create according to what I find to be my needs. Expose yourself to movies, music, transcripts, news articles, whatever works. I made lists from all the words in the grammar books to help me learn them, themed lists of stuff I wanted to learn (things in the house, food items, etc.), and lists from articles from the internet that I would highlight and annotate. For me, personally, I may never look back at these notes systematically, but reviewing them every once in a while would remind me of words and expressions, but mainly I acquired vocabulary through use and frequent encounter.

I would force myself to practice, practice, practice--be it plugging through grammar lessons or exercises, notating articles and looking up vocabulary, or writing characters--and then when I thought my brain would die of strain, I'd reward myself by watching a Chinese program, or listening to some music, or doing something more "fun" to keep my interest. And, usually, I would quickly start running into what I had just or recently learned in a native context.

Progress will feel slow and horrible a lot of the time, but as you look back, you'll find that it's happening and that it is very, very rewarding. At least that's been my experience. I find the whole process quite intriguing and rewarding for its own sake, though.

*EDIT* I write in the methodology framework section as though I am just starting out. Of course I still use these methods, but I am an advanced Chinese student now. That is to say that I can watch and listen to Chinese media and get most of it, read newspapers, understand college lectures (I'm taking graduate courses in law and IR at Nanjing University right now) and textbooks, etc. I stand by my method--at least for me and I suppose by extension for people who learn like me--because it worked.